Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

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Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:19 pm

What are you using for vavle jobs on a vertical mill
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Headguy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:06 am

jcisworthy wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:19 pm
What are you using for vavle jobs on a vertical mill
My vertical mills don't require valve jobs.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:27 am

Thats a good one lol. Here are some pictures of what I use
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:30 am

More stuff I use
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by ole4 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:54 pm

Nice! Where did you source the con stone and coated valves? The wheel is metal then coated? Any issues getting the wheel to run true? Great idea to put the angle on the wheel.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Hrdlx62 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:52 pm

Neat idea on the valve grinder stone. How does it perform overall finish? Valve head diameter reduction? I also like your idea for the leveling sensor holder. The cam system on the rollover fixture provides enough tilt for canted valve heads or do you use the mill head tilt or both?

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:27 pm

CBN stone replacement works great. I can turn about .001" per second off the head diameter comfortably. I turned the used LS 2" valve in the pictures down to 1.9 in less than 2 minutes. Wheel works great and still shows no signs of wear after a lot of use

Canted heads use adapter plates, then level like a wedge head with cam bolt and rollover. To change from intake to exhaust valve, remove head swap studs to oposite holes re mount and level.

Digital level is fast and accurate to .0001"
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by HDBD » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:40 pm

I admire your work and the product. Everything you stated about frustration is true and can't be overemphasized. Friendly comments and not to be considered a put down..
I suggest using Rottler solid carbide pilots
I suggest continuing with the Goodson, Serdi, or Newan tip holders in their ball head
Consider sweeping the pilot in the guide with the coaxial. Do it in a few places in Z to double check your level
Use more speed
Consider using mist coolant
You can sharpen the cutters with a diamond hone with the tip unmounted and get it square (important) and not take off as much material, also important
The electronic level is nice but there are some very accurate (starrett) spirit levels that will work just as well and the datum should be the spindle centerline as 0 then head tram is irrelevant, relationship between the pilot and spindle are the same regardless of tram or machine level.

I have cut a few heads on these machines obviously but got too pissed and bought a Serdi. Like you a 1 man shop changes the need for speed and quality plus more importantly low stress are all to be considered.
Good luck on your venture

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by modok » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:01 pm

Thanks for letting us into your shop and see what your up to. Lots I could comment on, and very temped to give you a hard time about a few things, but i don't think there is any need. Seems like you are solving problems as you encounter them, can't argue with that approach.
Those CBN coated lapping valves are a really neat idea.
I can take .001 off a seat no problem, with the right tools, but seems like the MAJORITY of folks don't know how to do that, but everybody thinks they know how to lap a valve, so you have a true marketable product there.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:29 pm

modok wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:01 pm
Thanks for letting us into your shop and see what your up to. Lots I could comment on, and very temped to give you a hard time about a few things, but i don't think there is any need. Seems like you are solving problems as you encounter them, can't argue with that approach.
Those CBN coated lapping valves are a really neat idea.
I can take .001 off a seat no problem, with the right tools, but seems like the MAJORITY of folks don't know how to do that, but everybody thinks they know how to lap a valve, so you have a true marketable product there.
I welcom all comments. I learn a lot from what other people have to say. Hard times are welcome, I like pain, well sometimes lol
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:30 pm

HDBD wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:40 pm
I admire your work and the product. Everything you stated about frustration is true and can't be overemphasized. Friendly comments and not to be considered a put down..
I suggest using Rottler solid carbide pilots
I suggest continuing with the Goodson, Serdi, or Newan tip holders in their ball head
Consider sweeping the pilot in the guide with the coaxial. Do it in a few places in Z to double check your level
Use more speed
Consider using mist coolant
You can sharpen the cutters with a diamond hone with the tip unmounted and get it square (important) and not take off as much material, also important
The electronic level is nice but there are some very accurate (starrett) spirit levels that will work just as well and the datum should be the spindle centerline as 0 then head tram is irrelevant, relationship between the pilot and spindle are the same regardless of tram or machine level.

I have cut a few heads on these machines obviously but got too pissed and bought a Serdi. Like you a 1 man shop changes the need for speed and quality plus more importantly low stress are all to be considered.
Good luck on your venture
I will take any advise anyone has to offer, I appreciate it.

If I want a mist or lubricant when cutting I use clear rubbing alcohol in a spray bottle which works well and dries up clean.

With the digital level there is no longer a need to sweep the pilot. I was just demonstrating how one would set up the pilot to get good initial digital display numbers for future use.

You need to know where your level is in relation to the quill and the world. 2.500 is "world level" and my quill level is 2.389 on the X and 2.386 on the Y with the sensor block I have.

I agree that a bubble is dead accurate, I stated that in the video if you watched it, but the eye ball is the problem with bubble levels.

I would challenge anyone to set up as consistently accurate with bubble compared to my digital level. I consistently hit 0-.0002" every time on the X and Y. If you watch the last 10 minutes of the long video link you will see that

I used a Serdi many times and they are fast to be sure. This is not as fast but it is faster than anything currently out there I have seen for a mill and with a tooling quick change set up can be very close to floating head speed. I consistently get less than .001" seat runnout also on my mill with good guides and careful cutting etc.

One of the biggest things you have to consider is price. You can buy one used seat and guide machine for say 20-35K with some tooling, sitting in the corner singing I'm so lonely lol, or you can just about tool up a small shop like mine for the same price. That is what started me in this direction.

For that price I can professionally do anything to heads, square deck blocks, cut valves to tenths accuracy, blueprint engines to tenths accuracy, balance rods, install press pistons and of course floating pistons, press pistons off rods, degree cams, torque rods with a stretch gauge, hone guides with a diamond hone and the list goes on and on all for the cost of a used seat and guide machine.

For me it was an easy decision.but doing it was the hard part
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by HDBD » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:14 am

By the way I really like the CBN lapping valves, good idea
So you are using the spindle as a Datum, awesome.
What are those numbers? I was thinking degrees and fractions of degrees or sometimes expressed as degree, minutes, seconds or EX. XX.XXX°. I don't understand the 2500 and also don't understand what you mean when talking about angles in terms of thousandths.
You touch on cutting a large surface area, and top and throat cuts first. I found that the fit of the ball was not that good, the tapered pilots not rigid enough or the taper was too steep (Rottler has fixed this) and the pilot to ball head was too loose. When all of that is tightened up the results are much better, less chatter better seats. I was going to try getting rid of the ball driver altogether and power the driver by collet and straight shank but never got around to that experiment either. It would sure test how accurate your setup really is as far as level and centered. There are also better coaxials such as a Blake and Haimer Centro. I have tried both. The Haimer is the only true measurement 1 for 1 due to their only offering two probes both calibrated to the device and it even gets down into 10ths.
I am going to sign off of the thread because I am afraid it looks like I am putting you down and reality is you have done a good piece of work. Others like me have spent years getting this process mastered and you can save new guys with limited tooling and machine budgets a lot of money. In my experimentation I even looked into an air float to center the pilot. Never had the time to fully develop it.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:15 pm

JC
I was surprised how fast you are spinning the CO-AX. I use a Blake and they want them to stay under 600. I generally go a whole lot slower than that. It allows me to better see which way to crank the table to dial in based on the needle swing.
FWIW I had dismal results with the Chinese knock off coaxes. The Blake is at a whole different level of quality and results.

Draw Bars: You are in desperate need of an air draw bar. Change your life. No more standing on stools, ever.
I whipped one up using this guys plans with HF parts.
Going strong after 6 years now.
http://home.insightbb.com/~joevicar3/cheap_drawbar.htm
Frankly it works as well or better than the pricey one on my CNC machine.

Now that you are offering this stuff up have you put together a web site?

HDBD:
air table. I have given that some thought but never got around to making it.
Most usually try to copy what the S&G machines have but it's not needed on a mill. This method usually wind up adding a whole lot of weight to the fixture.
We can move the table close to target rather than sliding the fixture all over the place.
You only need air under the fixture supports that hit the smooth part of the table. It is unlikely that the fixture will need to move more than .010 in either direction. Clamping it down. Also possible with air but I haven't burned many cells thinking that through yet.

In the meantime I pretty much dial in the same manner as shown here and by other members.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:46 pm

HBDB,

I don't think you are putting me down at all, not to worry.

I love the CBN valves they work great and you are in control as opposed to an operation such as kissing the seat with a stone.

The digital level is easy, I am not smart enough to figure out datum points etc.and come up with something

There is a sensor and a reader. The display of 2.500 is a voltage reading. The reader spits out a voltage number based on sensor location.

Level is based on whatever someone determined to be level.. It does not matter really because you get numbers for whatever machine you are using it on.

At 2.500 which is a voltage number, the sensor is "level" on that axis

The numbers I have for my mill , 2.389 and 2.386 are voltage numbers associated with the position of my quill on the X and Y axis in relation to 2.500 sensor location

With the quill trammed in and a pilot indicated true to the quill you install the sensor holder on the pilot, get numbers for X and Y and that is the voltage number you use to level with after that.

I have read that China coaxial indicators are not good but so far this one seems to work well. I turn about 300 rpm's with it.

Dave,

I will check out that air draw bar. I did not know they were out there.

I am new to the mill only having had it for about 2.5 years and I make no claims of being a machinist. I am a machine operator who has learned enough to do what I am doing and make prototypes for a real machinist to make final products for me.

I should have my web site update by the end of the weekend.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by HDBD » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:40 pm

Dave
The modular approach, small area and float distance, is genius. I like

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