461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:33 pm

by GOSFAST » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:07 pm
novadude wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:45 pm
Was there any rhyme or reason for which cars got "x" heads and which got standard 461s? Was it just luck of the draw, or were X heads reserved for certain applications?
You mentioned 487 heads. While we are talking open chambers, were there any unique 441s? I know these are popular in stock and super stock on the 255hp combinations.

As far as I can recall all the 461's cast up to and including the '63 model year were the "X" heads, the '64 model year dropped the "X's".

We have a bunch of experience with those "X" heads, I can tell you many were "destroyed" (on purpose) and "fixed" by an old friend, Al Mathon Sr., he was a master at welding cast iron material!

I believe Larry (up here) knew him really well. Almost every single "X" head he "fixed" ended up setting an NHRA record back in the day!! There was no porting allowed but you could "fix" them when necessary??

(Add) I have few "virgin" sets on the shelf here still, never been machined anywhere! They were all 1.940"/1.500" valves.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Al made the infamous Chevy V-16 by welding 2 blocks together in tandem! Here's a shot, it ended up in street rod, was originally destined for "marine" use by Al. He was without a doubt the best cast-iron welder on this planet in his time!
Dave "Big Dave" Trahan worked with me for 20+ years
Dave ended up in New Orleans suburb working with Joe Helmer who was a Dental assistant
that purchased entire Al Mathon HeadMaster "Rights" + all equipment
and moved entire operation to suburb in New Orleans ( suburb name escapes at this moment ) :)

i never met Al .... just good friends with Joe Helmer new Owner
on my 1st visit ... guess what i saw Joe was welding up / finishing ??? :)
... you guessed it --> killer NHRA C/ED #461X Heads :)

Joe was "Reverse Angle Welding" is what he termed it ,
that is instead of Angle-Milling .. you Weld up entire Decks/Chambers from opposite side
so you are increasing the Short Turn Curve to a better Shape + reducing the Chamber CC's in process
...sort of like one of Kaase's Chambers ... but not so drastic or obvious because it had to pass NHRA Tech for C/ED

Joe Helmer , David Trahan, and myself , all took a trip to Mena, Arkansas to Brodix
where i custom ordered SBC23 raised runner Pontiac/Brodix Heads 2.150/1.600 spread centers combo , Filed-core-boxes+wider no Pushrod Pinch
1 pair for myself + 1 pair for Steve Benoit

mr J.V. Brotherton gave us the Shop Tour + took us out to eat at his favorite resturant .
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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by novadude » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:57 pm

So were "deep bowl" 441s, x heads, etc just happy accidents, or did Chevy intentionally slip the good stuff into production to help out racers?

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:58 pm

novadude wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:57 pm
So were "deep bowl" 441s, x heads, etc just happy accidents, or did Chevy intentionally slip the good stuff into production to help out racers?
i like your Theory :D

i'm pretty sure or almost 100% positive GM/Chevy was doing exactly that .

all the "X" stuff was better...big CSA's , higher Flow CFM potential , etc ... the "X" was definetly race orienated !
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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:08 am

here's a " Rarity " .... a cast-iron prototype 1st design "sectioned" #034 Bowtie Head at Brodix
... i asked Mr. J.V. Brotherton, what's a cast-iron Chevy Head doing here ?? .... He said you weren't supposed to see that ! :D
but since you saw it ... He proceeded to tell me all about it , how Brodix is helping Chevy develope it .

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:10 am

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:10 am

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:11 am

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:14 am

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by dr5375 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:15 am

Has anyone had any dealings with an aluminum version of the old 340292 "turbo" head? I had a set and compared it to a 292 side by side and every thing looked the same even the single hump on the end, except no numbers or any identification at all. I also saw two other sets at different times. The set I had were ported when I got them and would pull to 8000 on my 406 at the time. Much better than the ported bowties they replaced.

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:43 pm

dr5375 wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:15 am
Has anyone had any dealings with an aluminum version of the old 340292 "turbo" head? I had a set and compared it to a 292 side by side and every thing looked the same even the single hump on the end, except no numbers or any identification at all. I also saw two other sets at different times. The set I had were ported when I got them and would pull to 8000 on my 406 at the time. Much better than the ported bowties they replaced.
i never heard of , or seen an aluminum version #292 Turbo Heads ?

could those have just been the aluminum Bowtie #049 version 1st design ?? ... i ran those on my old ET Dragster

posting your Pics if you have them would help greatly to identify .

PS : my 1st time visit to Brodix , i saw an aluminum exact replica of cast-iron Double-Camel-Hump SBC Heads
you might have a Brodix aluminum replica ??
Mr JV said they originally were casting up Aircraft landing gear ,and such ,
and a few Local Dirt Track Racers were getting them to make aluminum replicas of cast-iron Heads to Race

Mr JV said , from my memory ??... that it was orginally Dix foundry , when he married , changed the name to Brodix
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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by dr5375 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:56 pm

Unfortunately it was many years ago that I owned them and did not get pictures but when I had them side by side with the 292s I even did some measuring on the ports and everything was the same. Even the casting marks and markings on the outside were the same. I am reasonably sure it was a copy but with no logo, casting numbers or anything to tell who made them. I sold them with the engine but years later saw another set at a swapmeet and a third set at a machine shop. The guy I bought them from did not know who made them but had dealings with Brodix and thought they might have made them.

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by P R S » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:05 pm

I too have seen the "292 turbo" aluminum copy.They are on one of my customers engines but he got them with a car they bought.They resembled older Brodix castings ,I will see them again come freshen up time,but will be a few months.On the 461X castings,I haven't been out to look at all of mine since this thread started ,but i know the guide bosses on a couple I remember were the big fat ones on all valves not just the exhaust like the pictures.ive seen some late 1960 cast dates and seems like at one time,NHRA spec sheets showed them on 315 hp 283 Fi engines in Corvette in eithe '60 or '61.
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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by 91stang » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:40 pm

Are you sure that is two stock blocks welded together?
1991 mustang 3040 with driver all motor all the time 9.70 @ 138.75 1.31 60' street driven mufflers and real tires, mt 275/60/15 radials with a 950hp holley.

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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:21 am

P R S wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:05 pm
I too have seen the "292 turbo" aluminum copy.They are on one of my customers engines but he got them with a car they bought.They resembled older Brodix castings ,I will see them again come freshen up time,but will be a few months.On the 461X castings,I haven't been out to look at all of mine since this thread started ,but i know the guide bosses on a couple I remember were the big fat ones on all valves not just the exhaust like the pictures.ive seen some late 1960 cast dates and seems like at one time,NHRA spec sheets showed them on 315 hp 283 Fi engines in Corvette in eithe '60 or '61.
that would be great to see Pictures of your 461X versions
you might have even rarer 461X versions i've never seen !

You know when you mentioned Int and Exh both had large unmachined Guide Bosses in valve cover area ,
i think thats exactly what i saw on that 265cid earlier non-PowerPak Cyl Head in the other Thread , but didn't click at that time :)
i knew there was 2 things different on those 265cid Heads , the other being Valve Cover bolt holes

i was amazed at all the SBC + 461X's at Joe Helmer's "Al Mathon HeadMasters"
Joe had fixtures setup to reposition Spark Plug holes in 461X's and any SBC at the time,
relocate Valve Guide holes and Headbolt holes, etc.

also Joe showed me his custom made Stock and SuperStock Chrysler Hemi Chamber cutter
that you could go back and exactly duplicate the Hemi Chamber if need be on older Heads that had many Valve Jobs, etc.

Also there were the very early Brownsfield SBC aluminum Heads that looked somewhat similar to #292 Turbos
i think some had that single camel hump on the ends
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Re: 461X SBC Heads and other Rare SBC Heads

Post by maxracesoftware » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:46 am

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-3782461X- ... 1569247678

Look at the large unmachined Exhaust Valve Guide Boss + plain Casting Number + Center Fin
on EBAY ......
1961 3782461X L270 DATED HEAD CORVETTE ONLY 275-315HP 283" FUEL INJECTED ENGINE
:)
Image

Image

Image

i was correct about those 265cid 1955 Heads with both Intake and Exhaust unmachined large Valve Guide Bosses
and the offset Valve Cover holes
:)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SMALL-BLOCK-CH ... gu&vxp=mtr

need to use the Zoom feature to see
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