Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

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Carnut1
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:37 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:34 pm
I am guessing you blocked off all the other ports?

I had a set of Pro 1's flowing 317 and with ported Super Victor it was 307, then I had a long conversation with the main porter at Wilson manifolds that told me it would probably show good top end power at high rpm on the dyno but would probably suffer from shift recovery on the track, he was correct.

He went into great detail about how and why Cup teams will develop 3 or so Intake Spiders at the shop for track testing and how what show best on the dyne my not return the best track times and can even vary from track to track.
Yes, all blocked but the one I am flowing, carb installed. Why would it lose on shift recovery?
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by GARY C » Thu May 03, 2018 5:46 pm

Carnut1 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:37 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:34 pm
I am guessing you blocked off all the other ports?

I had a set of Pro 1's flowing 317 and with ported Super Victor it was 307, then I had a long conversation with the main porter at Wilson manifolds that told me it would probably show good top end power at high rpm on the dyno but would probably suffer from shift recovery on the track, he was correct.

He went into great detail about how and why Cup teams will develop 3 or so Intake Spiders at the shop for track testing and how what show best on the dyne my not return the best track times and can even vary from track to track.
Yes, all blocked but the one I am flowing, carb installed. Why would it lose on shift recovery?
Too Big, when the rpm drops on shift or going through a corner it looses the velocity and has to recover. Most likely if you flow that intake alone it will probably flow in the 340 cfm range, that is in the oval port BBC intake flow range and that intake will support a 496 ci engine.

Yours maybe fine, you will just have to test it against others to know which one is best for the combo.
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Interesting, Mine is a bit bigger than stock no doubt with 1206 opening and improved radius at the plenum. This manifold was also designed back when a killer head was a fuelie that flowed 260 cfm. I have run this manifold before and with modern heads I am sure it needs more csa.
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by GARY C » Thu May 03, 2018 6:03 pm

Yeah it would depend on the ci and rpm, the super vic for bigger ci engines are a 3.2 runner or so their catalog says.
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Thu May 03, 2018 7:56 pm

20180503_195336.jpg
In progress roof radius modification. Input welcome, Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Mon May 07, 2018 8:54 pm

Resized_20180506_172419.jpeg
I can see why the big boys charge what they do on a manifold. I like the tall design but makes it a bear to port! 6" burrs are not long enough. Cutting to a 1206 gasket and keeping a decent taper needs quite a bit of metal removal. Does anyone have some flow info on a Vic jr. Or Vic jr. Tall? Seems the long and short runners flow very different. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by maxracesoftware » Tue May 08, 2018 12:19 am

Carnut1 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:54 pm
Resized_20180506_172419.jpegI can see why the big boys charge what they do on a manifold. I like the tall design but makes it a bear to port! 6" burrs are not long enough. Cutting to a 1206 gasket and keeping a decent taper needs quite a bit of metal removal. Does anyone have some flow info on a Vic jr. Or Vic jr. Tall? Seems the long and short runners flow very different. Thanks, Charlie
your Plenum area and your Runner entry radius + turn radius from Carb pad , looks really good !
very nice work !

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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by steve cowan » Tue May 08, 2018 1:05 am

charlie,
did the snub stack show anything ??
and is that the modified carb tube that jmarkaudio showed us a couple of years ago?
i want to second on what larry said your burr work is real nice and you should be proud,very impressive and i tip my hat fine sir for all you post because it takes time and effort to do just that.

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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Tue May 08, 2018 5:56 am

Nice way to start the day, thanks! The stub stack did increase cfm I remember when I first did some flow work using that carb. It wasn't a huge amount. That carb is a 770cfm truck avanger from Holley I ran it on the old work truck 355 when I built it for my Dad's 69 Longhorn pickup. Any input on flow differences from long to short runners? Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by steve cowan » Wed May 09, 2018 3:06 am

hi charlie,
can you share some tips on how you make a decision on where to start work on the intake manifold if you are short on the expectation of flow and velocity through the intake tract.
1/ how critical is the match of the roof and the floor of the intake runner and intake port as in angle of transition.??
2/If the flow is down due to intake manifold fitment do you always start at the carb flange,plenum and start of runner at the plenum,this is if the port match has already been delt with previously ??
3/Do you keep the CSA the same through the runner,i have read where people try to keep the cfm and velocity the same through a OEM style intake manifold even when the runner lengths are different,i have been told this is the wrong process,any thoughts,
thanks for any ideas

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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Wed May 09, 2018 10:30 am

steve cowan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:06 am
hi charlie,
can you share some tips on how you make a decision on where to start work on the intake manifold if you are short on the expectation of flow and velocity through the intake tract.
1/ how critical is the match of the roof and the floor of the intake runner and intake port as in angle of transition.??
2/If the flow is down due to intake manifold fitment do you always start at the carb flange,plenum and start of runner at the plenum,this is if the port match has already been delt with previously ??
3/Do you keep the CSA the same through the runner,i have read where people try to keep the cfm and velocity the same through a OEM style intake manifold even when the runner lengths are different,i have been told this is the wrong process,any thoughts,
thanks for any ideas

steve c
Steve, Out of practice porting a Vic Jr. been a while. Like I stated before this is a old design so I figured it needed some extra csa to feed my Darts. Stock Vic Jr. needs some porting to match a 1204 which was done in the early 90's. This time it was matched to a 1206 gasket and quite a bit of material needs to be removed to have a similar to original shape but bigger. I did pay attention to taper but did not go ocd on it, this is a rough out and test right now. The entrance has a much different radius and has been raised a bit more than stock low and squared entry. Vic Jr. has issues with how it turns tight to the entry of the head port, just not enough material to get a straight shot so you do what you can. As far as same csa throughout the intake manifold it would be tough on this design, I prefer a lower taper angle than what this manifold is cast with and way longer runners. Port match may not add as much as you think until you get some serious air through the head, it needs to be tested. Hope this answered some of your questions. Input welcome. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by steve cowan » Thu May 10, 2018 3:05 am

thanks charlie,
i ported a victor jnr to suit a set of sportsman 2 about 5 years ago,the heads and intake are on the 327sbc in my car at the moment,car ran 108 mph @ 3650 a couple weeks ago.
i messed the dividers up a bit and hit them with epoxy and it stays on at the moment.
i just purchased a RPM airgap to go on the 165cc heads,and i will also buy a new victor jnr to do some testing on.
i am confident i can get the small heads and intake and smaller FT solid cam to run faster than the as cast sportsman 2 and oversize victor jnr on the 327.
i think the sportsman 2 and victor manifold will work well on the 383.

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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Thu May 10, 2018 12:37 pm

steve cowan wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 3:05 am
thanks charlie,
i ported a victor jnr to suit a set of sportsman 2 about 5 years ago,the heads and intake are on the 327sbc in my car at the moment,car ran 108 mph @ 3650 a couple weeks ago.
i messed the dividers up a bit and hit them with epoxy and it stays on at the moment.
i just purchased a RPM airgap to go on the 165cc heads,and i will also buy a new victor jnr to do some testing on.
i am confident i can get the small heads and intake and smaller FT solid cam to run faster than the as cast sportsman 2 and oversize victor jnr on the 327.
i think the sportsman 2 and victor manifold will work well on the 383.

steve c
Steve, don't run stock sportsman 2's they really come alive with some grinding. A few ST members call them overachievers because they make more power than the flows say they should make. Buried somewhere on ST I have a few sp2 threads. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by steve cowan » Fri May 11, 2018 2:50 am

charlie,
don't worry i will find those threads :D
over the last few years i have heard some very good results from sportsman 2s
i am looking forward to doing some bench work on them,hopefully have my valve opening tool,plastic inlet radius guides,and exhaust snubs done by next weekend,i want to put the air gap and 830 carb on the 165cc heads and re-bench test,hopefully some better realistic results this time.
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Re: Ported Dart 215's with port energy discussion 3.0

Post by Carnut1 » Fri May 11, 2018 5:14 am

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43087 This I think was the first thread on the sportsmans. They ran well, low 11's full body Camaro. No doubt I would work them differently now. Thanks, Charlie
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