Carbs make more power than FI?

[peejay]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

Sounds like you don't have much experience with EFI. I'm doing a new EFI car right now and EFI is easier and less expensive to install from the ground up. Apples to applies EFI is less expensive since you don't need to piece together all the little parts to crutch a carb + distributor type of system.

Alrighty quote me a good step like fuel tech or Holley dominator to run a tunnel ram two carbs on methanol. That’s what my new motor is going to be. It is a bbc should make around a 1000hp. The carbs are going to cost me $2200, that’s for two of them, ice ignition about $1000, and grid $350, I already have a rpm data logger that cost me $1500 and that was with dash. It does water temp, oil pressure, engine rpm and driveshaft rpm. If you can get within a $1000 of this I would buy it.

You won't need to take advantage of the main advantage EFI gives you, the ability to quickly and easily tune the engine's entire operating spectrum, from closed throttle to WOT, 800rpm to 8000rpm, -50F to 250F coolant temps, and so forth. You don't need crisp drivability when putting around town at 3% throttle and 1200rpm in gear like EFI can give you.

That's actually a big downside for the casual hobbyist. They want a nasty sounding engine and then EFI makes it run like a Camry, which makes them unhappy. My car idles at maybe 4" of vacuum at 1500rpm. It has near impeccable drivability. I can actually get it to idle down to 900rpm if I wanted but then it's running at maybe an inch of vacuum just to stay running and throttle response is a bit soggy

[Circlotron]

And just how many dead bodies do you see at busy intersections that have died from SMOG??
NONE!!

Given that more smog would make it harder to see those piles of dead bodies, that’s a difficult question to answer.

[JDR Performance]

A good carburetor can make more power without giving up drivability or throttle response. In fact, drivability and throttle response can be positive things that people notice.

[NORSK]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

I am not talking about any stock ecu,i talk about a standalone.
And it is not a cheap equivalent either,it is good stuff with very user friendly functions for mapping and set-ups
Like i mentioned above it has all those features,it comes with the harness,comes with the o2 sensor,ignition control is in the standalone,so what you need is coils (which doesn't have to be any fancy expensive stuff) some kind of tps,a fpr,fuel pump,air temp/map sensor,crank trigger,cam trigger,water temp and injectors
All those components can be used from standard cars,it is nothing special with them
The throttle bodies would have to be modified together with a custom made intake ofcourse
And i guess this is the hardest task for most people so thats why they use a ready proven carb/intake set-up instead
As for using a carb,well you still need a fuel pump,regulator,distributor with all kind of MSD boxes,coil,carb (s) and intake
Then you need a heep of jets,venturis,emulsion tubes and what not
And it has to be tuned for temp and humidity constantly,so how can this be any better than a efi which has compensations for those conditions and where you can monitor EVERYTHING from a display?
I have had my time with carbs and they have their place,but a proper made efi is just better in any ways

Keep believing the efi sales pitch. If you have to keep adjusting your carb then you never dynod it and it was out to lunch to start. I have yet to have change jets at the track and I am usually within a tenth from start to finish. The most you have to buy is jets and air bleeds. So maybe $100

In the efi world they use an air temp sensor and/or air mass meter and egt/o2 sensors for trying to compensate for this
But i get it now,if a carbureted engine has been on a dyno session it magically gets "immune" against various temps and humidity he-he

[Truckedup]

In the efi world they use an air temp sensor and/or air mass meter and egt/o2 sensors for trying to compensate for this
But i get it now,if a carbureted engine has been on a dyno session it magically gets "immune" against various temps and humidity he-he

There was a recent thread here about jetting carburetors for changes in air density...It seems some guys holding national speed records do not rejet for changes in air density unless it's extreme...It's also my experience on my LSR bikes...Not saying carbs are better than FI however...

[barnym17]

Pleas e remember a carb is a mechanical mass air flow operated fuel injection system,lol. All kidding aside that is really what they are they simply supply the correct amount of fuel for the air flowing thru them esp. when tuned correctly. It is also true they measre only the amount of air , they cannot calculate the density of said air like efi can. But that's where tuning comes in and also efi is tuning to adjust the fuel ratio it just saw not what it will see a millisecond later.It can see the air fuel ratio of past firing cycles using o2 sensors and tries to predict what it will need for the next, is it always right? good question not sure myself. A carb on the other hand delivers fuel based on actual airflow thru it at that particular moment not trying to guess the future based on the past.My personal OPINION is a well tuned carb is very hard to beat not impossible but difficult.
As far as better manners etc. I believe that is because the comparison between the 2 always seems to be a generic box stock carb (normally an out of the box holley) vs. efi , of course the carb loses that one.

[Truckedup]

As far as better manners etc. I believe that is because the comparison between the 2 always seems to be a generic box stock carb (normally an out of the box holley) vs. efi , of course the carb loses that one.

The Holley 600 bolted onto a typical 350 SBC street engine is real close out of the box...Many well meaning tuners screw them up and then curse their crappy carburetors....

[peejay]

A good carburetor can make more power without giving up drivability or throttle response. In fact, drivability and throttle response can be positive things that people notice.

A GOOD carburetor. Tuned well, by someone who knows what they are doing.

Most carburetors... are not good. Most people who touch a carb couldn't tune their way out of a boot with directions written on the heel. You can "tune" around all of the glaring issues by making them run rich so that you don't feel the lean areas, but that is inefficient and wasteful and leads to things like accelerated ring/bore wear.

The FIRST time I connected a wideband sensor to a "good running" carbureted car, I was SHOCKED at how crappy it was. I'm sure that given enough time, and enough modification to the various circuits, I probably could have gotten it better, using a scientific approach to addressing the major issues in decending order, but jeez. That would have been a couple minutes to fix if it was EFI, and it would run a hell of a lot better.

Tuning WOT is easy. Tuning the entire drivability spectrum is the important part, unless you're discussing something that only needs to idle in the pits and then run well from 5000-6500 three times in the quarter mile.

[Roundybout]

Say we had a race up Pikes Peak. Carb vs EFI.
Lets say we can adjust the ignition timing on the fly with both cars. Which would you choose?

[peejay]

Say we had a race up Pikes Peak. Carb vs EFI.
Lets say we can adjust the ignition timing on the fly with both cars. Which would you choose?

Whichever car was turbocharged!

[sanfordandson]

The carb guys seem worried about losing their bread and butter to something better. I dont blame them. If it we me I'd embrace FI, get ahead of the curve before my competitors.

I know of one particular circle track engine builder who was 100% against crate motors about 10 years ago. He saw the writing on the wall and is now one of the best know crate engine sellers/rebuilders in the country.

Times change.

[Warp Speed]

The carb guys seem worried about losing their bread and butter to something better. I dont blame them. If it we me I'd embrace FI, get ahead of the curve before my competitors.

I know of one particular circle track engine builder who was 100% against crate motors about 10 years ago. He saw the writing on the wall and is now one of the best know crate engine sellers/rebuilders in the country.

Times change.

That wasn't the original question or topic of the thread!

What has been funny the last 5 or 6 years, is that guys that could never properly tune a carb, have embraced the efi with open arms, due to the obvious reasons above.
Since, these proponents have shouted the superiority of efi in all areas.
When battled from the carb guys with the lack of output vs a carb, they always bring up the old "It's not an EFI manifold" or "it needs an EFI cam". This is true to a point I guess, and the advantages of a properly set-up EFI system, and the associated ignition and electronic controls are immense.
But it is tough to dispute the effectiveness of the good old "calibrated leak" carb when it comes to raw power output and air/fuel mixing.....that is unless your more of an electronic geek than a realist! LOL

That being said, carbs will basically be nonexistent in 10 years......just the way it is!

[Casper393W]

"Carbs will be extinct in 10 years" that is funny! When EFI first came on the scene back in the late 80's the same thing was said...lol. If anything technology has pushed carb development to allow users to tune pretty much every circuit in the carb. FI has developed at a quick rate and with the systems getting cheaper more people are getting in the game.

I put a dual channel Fast wideband on my F100 with a 306 making around 380hp I had a RPM-Airgap with a Quick fuel 750 Annular Boosters Double Pumper... Out of the box it would get 12 miles to the gallon. This is with a C4 trans and 3.50 gears in the rear. After about a hour of tuning i was able to get 17Mpg.. all of this due to the technology of having a wideband to "see" what was happening...

You go to any dragstrip across the country and the Holley Style carb still rules the roost... Will this change? Yes but there will still be some of us who prefer the simplicity of a carb... Is it harder to deal with on a 20deg morning...sure but there is a since of accomplishment of making Old school work to the best of it's ability and people respect that

[turbo2256b]

Holley quads tuning 003.JPG

SO THESE intakes were used on the same long block. Which was the better set up? which was easier / quicker to tune

[Warp Speed]

Holley quads tuning 003.JPG


SO THESE intakes were used on the same long block. Which was the better set up? which was easier / quicker to tune

Which one made the most power?
THAT IS the original question! Lol