Carbs make more power than FI?

[GARY C]

Over the years we have seen a number of fueling options.
1. An engine designed for carbs using carbs.
2. An engine designed for carbs using some form of fuel injection.
3. An engine designed for fuel injection using fuel injection.
4. An engine designed for fuel injection using carbs.

Option #3 will win every time, all other things being equal; which they seldom are.

Just as all carbs are not the same, neither are all fuel injection systems.

We started using timed port fuel injection sprayed at 450-500 psi, over 45 years ago.
No carb could come close with regard to performance. However, the best carbs at the time
(Webers) could be easily adjusted while the injection system was much more difficult to tune.
But once properly tuned it was no contest. Every factory prepared race car of the era switched to FI.

But not all FI systems are equal in performance. Part of the problem is system design and part is
due to installation error.

Today, we still have low pressure EFI systems that are often improperly mapped, coupled to an ineffective
induction system and questionable ignition mapping. A throttle body system with injectors can't really be
considered close to state of the art.

Injectors that squirt like a fire hose, rather than spray a fine fog are sub-optimal. Mixture quality
is just as important as mixture quantity. Fuel evaporative cooling that chills the inlet manifold
rather than increasing inlet air density is also sub-optimal.

In short, buzz words do not reflect the true performance potential of either type system.
Simply bolting on new hardware does not ensure improved performance. Like every other system
on a race car, it must be carefully, and sometimes painfully, optimized.

A lot of good info there that is often overlooked.

I found it interesting that even on the factory GM throttle body set up you could get both performance and economy increase by adding 2 or 3 psi and a cpl of degrees of timing.

[NORSK]

Here is the real advantage. A good Carb and ignition $2500. Efi $5000-6000 to go the same or maybe.05 faster. Why, so many other parts to gain more for less. Then when an efi car can’t fire because of some sensor the carb keep it simple stupid principle wins again.

This comparison may or may not be true, it all depends on what you are comparing. On a higher end bracket car it is basically a push. On a lower end car the carb will be cheaper. The higher end stuff usually has extras that add money such as timing retard, two step, nitrous controls, data logging, etc. All of that can be replaced with a Holley HP or Dominator system. So if you are starting from scratch it is less expensive to use EFI.

I know this since I'm building an EFI controlled car from scratch right now. The EFI system is expensive but I don't need to buy a distributor, ignition box, big MSD coil, data logger, nitrous control system, start retard, high speed retard, carb and jet kit, gauges and a gauge panel, etc. Not to mention, I don't need to mount or wire all of that stuff. So according to my spreadsheet it is cheaper to build with EFI from the start.

Not from my math at all the grid set up with custom carb $2500 efi same set up $5000-6000 and you still have to buy the ridiculously over priced accufab throttle bodies.

I have a standalone ecu here,in USD it costs roughly 1400
It supports 8cyl fully sequential
Supports just about any kind of crank trigger wheel combo,and both VR and hall crank/cam sensor
It can even support up to 16 high ohm injectors for staging if wanted
It has a closed loop lambda built in,it even has a bluetooth function to run a dashlogger through an android
It even has inputs for up to 8 egt sensors and 8 extra outputs for running fans,waterpumps or whatever desired
It really can not be simpler for that kind of money
Depending on how creative a person is,and acces to machining and such i am sure a fully functional efi system using this standalone can be made for less than 3500usd with throttle bodies,injectors,coils and everything
As for throttle bodies,there are countless options out there,for example bmw individual throttles which has a 51,50mm butterfly
I read somewhere that prostock carbs used around 2" venturies,so sizewise a bmw butterfly should be plenty for lots of power
In my opinion it is all about being creative,and the drag racing guys sure are creative
But It seems like many use countless hours on the engine internals,headwork,cams and what not,but missing out by running a mentioned "grid set up carb" UNLESS it is required with a carb in the rule book ofcourse
C mon,we live in 2018,things HAS moved forward from the carb era.........

[turbo2256b]

Have spent a lot of time messing with both and they are about even untill one gets into the more exotic individual TB set ups like the Hillborn electronic injection and such.

[NORSK]

Have spent a lot of time messing with both and they are about even untill one gets into the more exotic individual TB set ups like the Hillborn electronic injection and such.

It doesn't have to be any exotic,that's the whole point,besides what is exotic with the hillborn

[WeingartnerRacing]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

[NORSK]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

I am not talking about any stock ecu,i talk about a standalone.
And it is not a cheap equivalent either,it is good stuff with very user friendly functions for mapping and set-ups
Like i mentioned above it has all those features,it comes with the harness,comes with the o2 sensor,ignition control is in the standalone,so what you need is coils (which doesn't have to be any fancy expensive stuff) some kind of tps,a fpr,fuel pump,air temp/map sensor,crank trigger,cam trigger,water temp and injectors
All those components can be used from standard cars,it is nothing special with them
The throttle bodies would have to be modified together with a custom made intake ofcourse
And i guess this is the hardest task for most people so thats why they use a ready proven carb/intake set-up instead
As for using a carb,well you still need a fuel pump,regulator,distributor with all kind of MSD boxes,coil,carb (s) and intake
Then you need a heep of jets,venturis,emulsion tubes and what not
And it has to be tuned for temp and humidity constantly,so how can this be any better than a efi which has compensations for those conditions and where you can monitor EVERYTHING from a display?
I have had my time with carbs and they have their place,but a proper made efi is just better in any ways

[andyf]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

Sounds like you don't have much experience with EFI. I'm doing a new EFI car right now and EFI is easier and less expensive to install from the ground up. Apples to applies EFI is less expensive since you don't need to piece together all the little parts to crutch a carb + distributor type of system.

[peejay]

Here is the real advantage. A good Carb and ignition $2500. Efi $5000-6000 to go the same or maybe.05 faster. Why, so many other parts to gain more for less. Then when an efi car can’t fire because of some sensor the carb keep it simple stupid principle wins again.

This is one of my favorite arguments FOR fuel injection. It is a lot more reliable. "Failure because of some sensor" just does not happen all that much, and when it does, it's after a quarter million miles or more.

To get an EFI system that has the same tunability as a high end carb will cost a lot less than that carb. We're talking generations-old stuff nowadays that you can buy cheap to free.

[roc]

Here is the real advantage. A good Carb and ignition $2500. Efi $5000-6000 to go the same or maybe.05 faster. Why, so many other parts to gain more for less. Then when an efi car can’t fire because of some sensor the carb keep it simple stupid principle wins again.

This is one of my favorite arguments FOR fuel injection. It is a lot more reliable. "Failure because of some sensor" just does not happen all that much, and when it does, it's after a quarter million miles or more.

To get an EFI system that has the same tunability as a high end carb will cost a lot less than that carb. We're talking generations-old stuff nowadays that you can buy cheap to free.

Exactly. That reminds me back in the day when people allegedly would keep a spare points distributor in the trunk, just in case... (when cars switched to electronic ignitions).

Sensors reliability have drastically improved... the days of the horrid/clunky Chevy oil pressure sender are gone.

[WeingartnerRacing]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

Sounds like you don't have much experience with EFI. I'm doing a new EFI car right now and EFI is easier and less expensive to install from the ground up. Apples to applies EFI is less expensive since you don't need to piece together all the little parts to crutch a carb + distributor type of system.

Alrighty quote me a good step like fuel tech or Holley dominator to run a tunnel ram two carbs on methanol. That’s what my new motor is going to be. It is a bbc should make around a 1000hp. The carbs are going to cost me $2200, that’s for two of them, ice ignition about $1000, and grid $350, I already have a rpm data logger that cost me $1500 and that was with dash. It does water temp, oil pressure, engine rpm and driveshaft rpm. If you can get within a $1000 of this I would buy it.

[WeingartnerRacing]

Here is the real advantage. A good Carb and ignition $2500. Efi $5000-6000 to go the same or maybe.05 faster. Why, so many other parts to gain more for less. Then when an efi car can’t fire because of some sensor the carb keep it simple stupid principle wins again.

This is one of my favorite arguments FOR fuel injection. It is a lot more reliable. "Failure because of some sensor" just does not happen all that much, and when it does, it's after a quarter million miles or more.

To get an EFI system that has the same tunability as a high end carb will cost a lot less than that carb. We're talking generations-old stuff nowadays that you can buy cheap to free.

Please. I know at the emc the engines that had hard time starting were efi not carb. Sensors fail all the time otherwise parts stores wouldn’t stay in business.

[WeingartnerRacing]

It may be 2018 but carbs still run as good or better than efi and cost thousands less. I think the efi thing is a fad cool thing so people can say they are a tuner and have the latest technology. It’s like the guy that has to have the latest smart phone. Then months later realizing the thing cost a lot more than the old one and isn’t much better.

Since it’s 2018 the one thing that has changed is most engines now have a power adder. Na heads up racing is almost none existent. Due to this efi has become necessary because carbs don’t work as well with boost set ups.

I wish efi was cheaper, and please don’t say stock ecm or some cheap equivalent is fine. Most just include some pieces in the cost but not all. You have ecm $1200, wiring harness $500, injectors$1000, o2 sensors $200, other sensors $300, throttle body $600 and that is no ignition pieces and on the cheap side. Efi done right is expensive.

I am not talking about any stock ecu,i talk about a standalone.
And it is not a cheap equivalent either,it is good stuff with very user friendly functions for mapping and set-ups
Like i mentioned above it has all those features,it comes with the harness,comes with the o2 sensor,ignition control is in the standalone,so what you need is coils (which doesn't have to be any fancy expensive stuff) some kind of tps,a fpr,fuel pump,air temp/map sensor,crank trigger,cam trigger,water temp and injectors
All those components can be used from standard cars,it is nothing special with them
The throttle bodies would have to be modified together with a custom made intake ofcourse
And i guess this is the hardest task for most people so thats why they use a ready proven carb/intake set-up instead
As for using a carb,well you still need a fuel pump,regulator,distributor with all kind of MSD boxes,coil,carb (s) and intake
Then you need a heep of jets,venturis,emulsion tubes and what not
And it has to be tuned for temp and humidity constantly,so how can this be any better than a efi which has compensations for those conditions and where you can monitor EVERYTHING from a display?
I have had my time with carbs and they have their place,but a proper made efi is just better in any ways

Keep believing the efi sales pitch. If you have to keep adjusting your carb then you never dynod it and it was out to lunch to start. I have yet to have change jets at the track and I am usually within a tenth from start to finish. The most you have to buy is jets and air bleeds. So maybe $100

[WeingartnerRacing]

One more note I don’t efi. I would run it if it did not cost so much but I am not spending 2k extra to be cool and not gain noticeable in the et.

[peejay]

Here is the real advantage. A good Carb and ignition $2500. Efi $5000-6000 to go the same or maybe.05 faster. Why, so many other parts to gain more for less. Then when an efi car can’t fire because of some sensor the carb keep it simple stupid principle wins again.

This is one of my favorite arguments FOR fuel injection. It is a lot more reliable. "Failure because of some sensor" just does not happen all that much, and when it does, it's after a quarter million miles or more.

To get an EFI system that has the same tunability as a high end carb will cost a lot less than that carb. We're talking generations-old stuff nowadays that you can buy cheap to free.

Please. I know at the emc the engines that had hard time starting were efi not carb. Sensors fail all the time otherwise parts stores wouldn’t stay in business.

Because auto parts stores only sell "sensors" and not brake pads, spark plugs, air filters, ball joints, and other stuff.

FWIW, the car i converted to EFI in 2009-ish was done with all junkyard parts and leftovers save the $80 computer, $70 wiring harness, and $200 fuel pump (I insisted on a Bosch). I never had any "sensor failures" like you seem to imply happens all the time. The TPS on my car right now is from a zillion mile Ford 4.6 that I adapted to the choke end of a 3310's primary throttle shaft by cutting a couple grooves in it, for example. Most TPSs are spring loaded the wrong way to work on a Holley, some Fords go the correct way.

One of my ideas was to gut the metering plates and spray the fuel injectors directly into the boosters. Never got around to it.

[pdq67]

To heck with it!!

If I want more power, then I will supercharge my engine!

The real reason we have efi now is because of the EPA and it's never ended tighter ICE emissions. Carbs and points did fine until emissions got in the equation!

EPA isn't going to back off of ICE emissions until the ICE is dead and we are using public transportation, electric vehicles, busses, and light rail systems!

Much less bicycles...

And just how many dead bodies do you see at busy intersections that have died from SMOG??

NONE!!

And this shit has cost us at least $1,000,000,000,000 and probably much more!

pdq67