Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

kustumkid
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by kustumkid » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:52 pm

Hello all, I am new here. My dyno guy says this is the forum where all the the really smart guys hangout (probably why I was not here...lol). So... I am attempting to build a 1600 rwhp car on a budget. I got a great deal on a dart bbc. It was a used motor out of a modified dirt car. The motor has a 4" callies ultra light crankshaft, oliver ultra light I-beams, 4.50 diamond forced induction pistons (these are the only thing I changed from the original dirt track motor) cam has 714 lift (un-known otherwise), profiler 355 cylinder heads, titanium valves, jessel rockers, victor intake. I plan to use a blow through carb on alcohol. I can get it cheap and don't need a intercooler. I have had experience in the past with a blow through on e85. At 1006 rwhp and 21psi boost I was starting to have trouble with spark running MSD 7 digital box and matching coil. Pure alcohol I know is going to be more trouble. I was thinking of using a magneto off a old sprint car. You can buy them cheap and very little to go wrong, if I understand how they work right. Anyone here have experience running one of these? Any way to control them... rev limit, timing retard ect..? Any other suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. I would like to keep the ignition budget around $500. Thanks in advance!

MTENGINES
Pro
Pro
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:52 am
Location: MN

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by MTENGINES » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:00 pm

You want an ignition system under $500?
Maybe you can find a used MSD-10 or a broken magneto.

kustumkid
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by kustumkid » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 pm

I see a lot of used vertex mags on ebay that they say are tested and good. I found one rebuilt for 500.

User avatar
af2
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6209
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:42 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA :Northern Foothills

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by af2 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:05 pm

A 7AL3 should fire just about anything.. Magneto? You just lost me ....
GURU is only a name.
Adam

statsystems
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:17 am

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by statsystems » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:23 pm

If you are actually going to make that much power with boost and E85 you need a magneto. It's that simple. There is not a battery fired ignition that will fire that much power reliably.

I understand budget. Don't step over donuts to pick up dog turds.

You might get away with a 20 amp mag but why chance it's. I've had issues with 1200 HP engines and MSD 7 ignitions. By the time we were done I was down to a .020 plug gap and it still was on the very edge of misfire.

MTENGINES
Pro
Pro
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:52 am
Location: MN

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by MTENGINES » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 pm

statsystems wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:23 pm
If you are actually going to make that much power with boost and E85 you need a magneto. It's that simple. There is not a battery fired ignition that will fire that much power reliably.

I understand budget. Don't step over donuts to pick up dog turds.

You might get away with a 20 amp mag but why chance it's. I've had issues with 1200 HP engines and MSD 7 ignitions. By the time we were done I was down to a .020 plug gap and it still was on the very edge of misfire.
Yes. An msd 10 will. And they use about 25-30amps of current

statsystems
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:17 am

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by statsystems » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:46 pm

AFAIK they stopped making the 10 in 2008-2009 becuase a mag will do everything the 10 will and more.

kustumkid
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by kustumkid » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Thanks, statsystems! I was having trouble with my msd 7 at 1000 rwhp on e85. I was at 20 on the plugs also. Thinking there is a pattern here! This one will be pure alky not e85 so, would be even worse. I don't think they make MSD 10 anymore. That was dis continued years ago to my knowledge.

kustumkid
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by kustumkid » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:49 pm

statsystems.... you thinking a old vertex mag will not do it? not sure how many amps they are. A lot of blown fuel cars used them is the 70's. That's why I was thinking it might work?

kustumkid
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by kustumkid » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:55 pm

Forgot to add...... not using a screw blower. I'm going to use twin 88mm turbos for the boost in this combo. 525 each from on3. Plenty of air for cheap and a lot less heat than a blower!

statsystems
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:17 am

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by statsystems » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:31 pm

kustumkid wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:49 pm
statsystems.... you thinking a old vertex mag will not do it? not sure how many amps they are. A lot of blown fuel cars used them is the 70's. That's why I was thinking it might work?

I think the most I've seen a vertex produce was 2 amps. That's pretty small. If you can find a Mallory Super Mag III the can go as high as 4.5 amps but the need rare earth magnets to do it, a huge condenser and it's hard to run electronics with them, although they do make a two step that will work with them.


If you have the MSD mag you can run almost any electronics you want.

User avatar
Dave Koehler
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3527
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
Location: Urbana, IL USA
Contact:

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by Dave Koehler » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:12 pm

I agree on the Mag for this app but let's stop this road trip for a moment and pull over.
You, the OP, spend all this money and now you want to go all Ebay on the ignition?

I can hear the conversation at the engine shop now. "Don't believe me, go ask these guys".
MSD 20 will do the trick.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."

MTENGINES
Pro
Pro
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:52 am
Location: MN

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by MTENGINES » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:01 am

statsystems wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:46 pm
AFAIK they stopped making the 10 in 2008-2009 becuase a mag will do everything the 10 will and more.
And he will find a mag for under $500? I suggested an MSD that he could find used. an 8 or 7 will work also.

But then again. I haven't had problems lighting 1400whp on alcohol with a 7531 and a nology coil. 30lbs of boost and .025gap. Maybe some should look into their tune.
Some people use waay too cold of a plug and think it's their spark blowing out. When it's just their plug fouling.

kustumkid
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:19 pm

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by kustumkid » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:55 am

Dave, what wrong with buying used parts? There is no challenge in spending a lot of money to make big power, anyone can do that. When you go to the track no one gives a shit about your shiny expensive car that's loud, annoying and slow. People want to see a farm truck...lol. I have $4500 in the entire engine and $1050 in the turbos. Every piece was used and some from ebay too...lol. Not buying A $2000 mag to fire this thing. As I said before you can buy used mags out of sprint cars for less than $500 all day. I was looking for someone that actually knew how much power the older ones had . Statsystems seems to be the only helpful person so far. And thank you for that statsystems. I have researched and found a guy that works on mags here in PA not far from me. I will talk to him today to see if there are any other tricks he could do to get the power up on those old ones. That would icing the cake if I could run something that's not expensive and looks like its from 1970...lol

User avatar
Dave Koehler
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3527
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
Location: Urbana, IL USA
Contact:

Re: Budget high power igniton system to fire alcohol and high boost?

Post by Dave Koehler » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:16 am

Ok, fair enough. While I somewhat admire your budget challenge sometimes it just does not make financial sense.
If buying used it should be an MSD mag. Then get it tested.
You are in the blown alcohol world now which is a different and more demanding animal.
The vertex 1-2 amp mags were not fun back when that is all there was. Been there, got the T-shirt.
If they held up for a 3-4 races we were lucky. Had to have a spare on hand while the other one was being worked on. 1 in the car, 1 in the trailer, 1 getting massaged. Does that sound like savings?
You are going to do whatever you perceive as good enough no matter what anyone recommends so you are correct.
I'm out.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."

Post Reply