Re: Ported Dart 215 pro1 platinum with port energy discussion 2.0

[groberts101]

To hopefully avoid yet another circle jerking around here.. I have a quick question in regards to the "port energy" testing methodology.

Can a faster fps port(ie: tall entry highly downswept port angle/taller SSR apex) measure higher on that energy scale as compared to an slower fps OEM type squash port design that has been blown out to make a higher CFM number?

IOW, a smaller highly efficient port moving less mass but at higher speeds can match or potentially beat another larger less efficient port moving more mass but at slower speeds on this "port energy" chart?

[GARY C]

I get it Eric, I am on top of my bench and would expect the pros to be as well. If you don't compare your work to a proven design how do you know you are on the right track if dyno and track times are in the future? I think if Chad was upset with me posting a graph with his work he would let me know. As I have written at this point I cannot get an intake port to flow that much that fast at that port volume. Chad did a great job on those 205cc heads.

Exactly why I post stuff! If it helps just one person, that is the point. Not about getting work, trying to be smarter, blah blah blah. I can deal with being called an internet porter, internet hero, etc. It's ALL ABOUT HELPING others and passing it on. Good or bad or in between. PERIOD!

Here is a set of those heads on my 380. Nice and crisp and clean!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_izFCX ... e=youtu.be

Not to be a fan boy but Chad, Larry and Eric all post very informative and helpful threads.
D.V. as well but I noticed he is most likely done with ST. Thanks, Charlie

I don't blame him, hopefully he will let you post some of the dyno information on the SBF head testing in relation to all this.

[Carnut1]

To hopefully avoid yet another circle jerking around here.. I have a quick question in regards to the "port energy" testing methodology.

Can a faster fps port(ie: tall entry highly downswept port angle/taller SSR apex) measure higher on that energy scale as compared to an slower fps OEM type squash port design that has been blown out to make a higher CFM number?

IOW, a smaller highly efficient port moving less mass but at higher speeds can match or potentially beat another larger less efficient port moving more mass but at slower speeds on this "port energy" chart?

Since velocity is squared in the equation I would say yes if the mass flow is not too fast which would be counter productive to power.
I am far from a firearm expert but it may work for an example.
Compare the Muzzle energy from a .22 cal vs. .44 cal, .22 has low mass and high velocity, .44 has high mass but a much slower velocity. What should we be working towards? .44 magnum maybe?

[Warp Speed]

So is it +25 ANYWHERE ELSE, or is it +25 at the dyno down the street?!?

I've had more than one of my personal customers dyno on Cobbs and it's been 25+.

But let me rephrase it. Most engines on that dyno are down 25+ hp. As they are a dyno shop and do lots of engine.

I understand, just giving you a bad time. You head guys can get a little dramatic! Lol

[user-9274568]

So is it +25 ANYWHERE ELSE, or is it +25 at the dyno down the street?!?

I've had more than one of my personal customers dyno on Cobbs and it's been 25+.

But let me rephrase it. Most engines on that dyno are down 25+ hp. As they are a dyno shop and do lots of engine.

I understand, just giving you a bad time. You head guys can get a little dramatic! Lol

I know that! I've paid my dues with you in the past! lol.. I want to be on your good side, actually everyones good side.

[GARY C]

I've had more than one of my personal customers dyno on Cobbs and it's been 25+.

But let me rephrase it. Most engines on that dyno are down 25+ hp. As they are a dyno shop and do lots of engine.

I understand, just giving you a bad time. You head guys can get a little dramatic! Lol

I know that! I've paid my dues with you in the past! lol.. I want to be on your good side, actually everyones good side.

Do all CUP guys seek to create controversy on line?

[Warp Speed]

I understand, just giving you a bad time. You head guys can get a little dramatic! Lol

I know that! I've paid my dues with you in the past! lol.. I want to be on your good side, actually everyones good side.

Do all CUP guys seek to create controversy on line?

Nobody was talking to you, move along troll!

[GARY C]

I know that! I've paid my dues with you in the past! lol.. I want to be on your good side, actually everyones good side.

Do all CUP guys seek to create controversy on line?

Nobody was talking to you, move along troll!

I was joking, don't freak out.

[Warp Speed]

I've had more than one of my personal customers dyno on Cobbs and it's been 25+.

But let me rephrase it. Most engines on that dyno are down 25+ hp. As they are a dyno shop and do lots of engine.

I understand, just giving you a bad time. You head guys can get a little dramatic! Lol

I know that! I've paid my dues with you in the past! lol.. I want to be on your good side, actually everyones good side.

Oh your on my good side for sure, not that it matters but....lol
Again, just giving you a bad time. Head guys are pretty easy to get riled up.
I've always said though, if your head guy isn't a tad different, you probably need to find a different one! Lol

[CGT]

But doesn't everyone's dyno...and flow bench read low or conservative? How often do you hear someone say their own personal bench or dyno is "happy"? Not often or at all. Jon Kaase told me at this past EMC that his dyno reads a little high. I told him that you weren't supposed to say that. I don't think he cares about marketing at this point.

[Warp Speed]

Do all CUP guys seek to create controversy on line?

Nobody was talking to you, move along troll!

I was joking, don't freak out.

I WASN'T!





Just kidding! HAHAHA

[WeingartnerRacing]

Randy is right you need to dyno after awhile you are chasing cfm but the dyno might show nothing or a loss. After you dyno you will have more questions you will need to solve to help your Porting. Also stop comparing your flow numbers to other people’s numbers. Unless that Head was flowed on your bench too those numbers will mean nothing. What if there bench reads high or yours? Then they look different with the port velocity charts you have. Something to think about.

I get it Eric, I am on top of my bench and would expect the pros to be as well. If you don't compare your work to a proven design how do you know you are on the right track if dyno and track times are in the future? I think if Chad was upset with me posting a graph with his work he would let me know. As I have written at this point I cannot get an intake port to flow that much that fast at that port volume. Chad did a great job on those 205cc heads.

I think you missed my point. It’s fine to see others work but I don’t believe their flow numbers unless they have been on my bench or another I trust. All my information comes from heads flow numbers from my bench. My data comes from that. If I used other people’s numbers the information it gives me would be false.

[groberts101]

To hopefully avoid yet another circle jerking around here.. I have a quick question in regards to the "port energy" testing methodology.

Can a faster fps port(ie: tall entry highly downswept port angle/taller SSR apex) measure higher on that energy scale as compared to an slower fps OEM type squash port design that has been blown out to make a higher CFM number?

IOW, a smaller highly efficient port moving less mass but at higher speeds can match or potentially beat another larger less efficient port moving more mass but at slower speeds on this "port energy" chart?

Since velocity is squared in the equation I would say yes if the mass flow is not too fast which would be counter productive to power.
I am far from a firearm expert but it may work for an example.
Compare the Muzzle energy from a .22 cal vs. .44 cal, .22 has low mass and high velocity, .44 has high mass but a much slower velocity. What should we be working towards? .44 magnum maybe?

Thanks, Charlie. I get some of the muzzle energy and mass velocity stuff. My analogy would be along the lines of not necessarily needing a .44 to kill a squirrel when the .22 is more than adequate for the task. More akin to putting a slower 250cc head on a 300" street motor when the volume demand only requires a 200cc head of similar design to get the job done.

Guess no matter how you measure.. it all still boils down to working towards higher c/d for any given port area that best matches the necessary piston demand requirement. Who knew? Lol

[KnightEngines]

I've always said though, if your head guy isn't a tad different, you probably need to find a different one! Lol

I think we're all a little 'different' or 'special'.
No one completely normal would do this shit for a living! - much better conditions/pay/easier on body etc sitting in an office shuffling papers.

[statsystems]

I've always said though, if your head guy isn't a tad different, you probably need to find a different one! Lol

I think we're all a little 'different' or 'special'.
No one completely normal would do this shit for a living! - much better conditions/pay/easier on body etc sitting in an office shuffling papers.

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