Arao heads

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Newold1
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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:00 am

Casper393W wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:32 pm
I have talked to Greg Brown (Hammerhead) and he has done his homework on those heads he made 928hp from 428 CI I would say they are impressive... The kit is all inclusive of the 6k
That is a nice number for a 428 Ford BBF and I am sure a lot of work went into those heads.
As for $6K for a total assembled kit I disagree as the intake does not come in the kit and a standard Ford intake can be re-used. But of you read carefully you will see the Jessel rockers ($2200), new custom headers $1500) and some other pieces are not in the kit so the $9K or so figure is actually accurate.
These look to be GREAT heads but the conversion is just to expensive for the average Ford performance user in MY OPINION! That's the reason they are not selling boat loads of them!

Hey pdq67 I do not mean to bash your MODERN idea or your contributions to this post. I am just trying to give some idea and thought to how the some good cost friendly excellent performing heads and intakes could be developed for some reasonable dollars that would not need exotic (expensive valve trains) and could use existing headers, valve train, valve covers, valve sizes and simple intake manifold designs to make it less expensive and easier for SBC & BBC enthusiasts to reach 750-900 HP without putting them selves in financial distress! These heads are already in the market from a lot of aftermarket head companies but their current limited production and special high end racing users keep them up in stratospheric dollars!

As for Pete Ardema, I have known and had some direct person to person conversations with him over the years and his one off heads type production and use don't put them in the class of mass product I am proposing. Again if they were the "Answer", Pete would be busy building hundreds of them.

Those reading and absorbing this thread should understand that if moderate cost heads and intake systems that are going to achieve this type of power levels and be used in the bigger mass market they are going to have to be simple high quality parts that are produced in large quantities at very affordable prices! that's what makes, justifies and sustains production and sales of such products!

Not to be critical but my guess is that small outfits like Hammerhead and Ardema have probably sold less than 25 of their systems and that ain't gonna cut it! JMO

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Re: Arao heads

Post by autogear » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:18 am

In over 15 years of going to the Syracuse Nationals, I have seen more ArDun and Rajo heads on cars than Arao-style conversions. In fact close to 2001 I saw ONE SBC with (I think) Dominion heads there, and the show averages 5500 cars a year. Granted theres a LOT of 'the usual suspects' returning every year; but the Arao style heads are just not that popular, which to me means that while they work...the performance just isn't there. If these things actually performed wellenough to justify the expense; you'd see a lot more of them.
I quizzed the guy with the SBC, in a 32 coupe, with magnesium rims and all kinds of vintage cool factor, but he knew literally zero. He just bought the engine through a builder and barely drove the car other than going out to eat after trailering it to car shows. I remember he was parked next to a 34 Ford kit car with a Viper V10 and that car had some serious miles on it, something like 15000 in 4 or 5 years according to the gentleman in the lawnchair. The V10 got way more people gawking than the converted SB

Newold1
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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:12 pm

One of my points exactly!

roc
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Re: Arao heads

Post by roc » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:09 pm

We better hurry up figuring out this 32V deal real quickly. You know... the 375V is coming really strong.

Yeah... Tesla.

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Re: Arao heads

Post by peejay » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 pm

roc wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:09 pm
We better hurry up figuring out this 32V deal real quickly. You know... the 375V is coming really strong.

Yeah... Tesla.
Is that AC Cobra three phase?

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Re: Arao heads

Post by pdq67 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:08 pm

OK guys, how much horsepower is saved using an SOHC set-up vs a cam in block??

And I just remembered this little jewel IF they ever get it sealed right??

The Coates Rotary Valve design.

http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html

pdq67

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Keith Morganstein » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:42 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:18 pm
Hey Mark
Glad you did some more fact finding and came up with some pricing for the Hammerhead system.

I did a little looking also and found a few more things. The basic head kit is between $6k to $6.3K depending on cam type, it requires a $150 distributor hold down, a new set of headers which will probably cost about $1500 being custom, new set of Hemi plug wires $190, a new set of ARP head bolts $150 and a nice new Jesel rocker set up at only $2200 so my math gets that $6k up to about $10K and that does not include the $2400 Hogan manifold if they are used on an LS engine.
The head kits include assembled heads, Jesel rocker system, cast valve covers, gaskets.
Automotive Machining, cylinder head rebuilding, engine building. Old school shop, semi-retired moonlighter. Can't seem to quit #-o

Newold1
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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:07 am

Looks like maybe the Jesel rockers do come in the kit, I think their kit should be described with items included on thier site.

If that is the case and it includes all the listed needed and use the individual pricing I come up with $6700 for hydraulic roller and $7000 for solid roller and you still need a set of custom headers @$1500 so for a total system of just heads and exhaust you are still talking between $8200 to $8500 for the heads and exhaust, I don't call that affordable for the AVERAGE USER IN THE BIG MARKET.

What I am talking about here is not that it is not a nice system, it's that the average high performance engine user is not going to spend that much, they can't afford it.

There is sometimes a tendency here on Speedtalk for a few replies and comments to come from guys who spend a lot of time, have a lot of engine experience and build some high dollar engines for even street use and racing and they don't represent the BIG market! Some don't even have much racing or have special higher performance engines, they just have acquired a fair amount of knowledge about high performance and racing engines and love to discuss and comment on same!

I don't consider myself a major expert (about 45 years of actual performance engine building sprinkled with some racing)but I am just saying when it comes to the SBC and BBC engine families the market is not offering any NEW affordable HEADS AND MANIFOLD systems that bring average market users of these platforms up to the real potentials of these engines at AFFORDABLE PRICES WITH SOME HIGHER HORSEPOWER LEVELS!

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Krooser » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:31 am

A slight hijack here...

Speaking of limited production pieces during my high dollar classic car transport days I brought two 427 Cobras to a Christies auction held at a plush private estate in Connecticut.

Speaking to one of the auctioneers the day before the event he mentioned that they expected 100 of the original 56 427 Cobras that we're produced.

A classic British quote..
Last edited by Krooser on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last place in the B-main is better than anyplace in the grandstands...

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Krooser » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:32 am

Oops......
Last place in the B-main is better than anyplace in the grandstands...

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Casper393W » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:48 am

I do agree that the speciality heads only cater to a small percentage of the public.... But I what I like about the Hammerhead deal is for someone who loves the look of the Boss 429 you can build your own on a common variety Windsor or Cleveland block and save some bucks...

It would be interesting to see the cost of building a Kaase Boss 9 vs Hammerhead deal... Then have a Dyno shootout CI being equal in both builds...

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Re: Arao heads

Post by pdq67 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:08 am

I get you.

351", 2-barrel Cleveland heads on a 289" and 302" block sort a deal. Instant little Boss engine!

pdq67

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:20 pm

What I guess I am trying to get across here and I hope the thought spreads. Sometimes a lot of smaller voices make a market move from a standpoint of investment, development and offerings.
Lots of voices in the aftermarket and high performance car and engine markets need to send a sort of unified message to cylinder head (interested) and existing designers, developers and sales and marketing types in this industry that a large group from a numbers standpoint would like to see some new versions of some lower cost cylinder head offerings that can bolt onto the blocks now in the market for SBC and BBC aftermarket use that will allow lots of users to achieve some of the increased power levels that are already being produced and used in the LSX market for example. Don't let anybody tell you it's not possible, that's a copout!

All the big market of these lower cost products has been doing for the last 15 years is taking 1960's vintage designs and moving most production to simple copy like aluminum heads with no real movement of port heights or locations, combustion chamber shapes and valve angles or orientation and left the designs pretty much depending on old intake manifold designs. The only users who have seen great leaps in cylinder head designs and production for these heads are the very small select high end racers with high cost racing cylinder head manufacturers filing that small market for the SBC and BBC's. These products are all high dollar limited production pieces.

My thought and suggestion is for all those out there both on this forum, other forums and the aftermarket for high performance should start letting some in thsi industry that they would like to see this product market filled and that they would buy that product if it were available.
when we go to shows like PRI, SEMA, Car Swaps, and places where these engine part manufacturers and developers are showing their products and trying to drum up their business that we all let them know it's time, the economy can support such a successful effort and a lot of us are waiting.

I fear that if nothing is done along these lines that the SBC and BBC and the millions of enthusiasts and lower budget racers and hobbyists are going to loose these these two huge platforms especially as racing itself is shrinking in almost all forms and the newer engine platforms are swallowing what's left of the performance engine market!

If you don't give a sh*t, so be it, just keep pounding away on the internet. If you do think this is a good idea then speak up where it matters and make your feelings known, then make sure you help spread the word!

MARKETS LISTEN AND RESPOND TO INPUT, YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE IT!

OK, I've said my piece, I'll just keep pushing where ever I can.

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Re: Arao heads

Post by pdq67 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:04 pm

I did this some years back when I got on somebody's case about making REAL, "oval port", SBC heads!

My thinking was that a round port has the least wall friction vs a rect port like made so why not do a SBC head like a BBC large oval port!

And I think Dart did finally bring them out?

I have also been harping about 1.5" taller forged stock type spindles for the early A/F/X Car family!! To raise my bad front roll center that my '67 Camaro has...

And I recently found out that a billet aluminum one is made, but pricy!

I also like Pete Aardema's SOHC SBC head conversions but I don't know how much power increase a conversion will produce vs a cam-in-block engine?

It may not be economical to install one??

Modern inexpensive roots type blowers are another possible candidate here???

pdq67

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Ron E » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:54 pm

Brodix has some nice oval port heads for SBC's

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