Arao heads

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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pdq67
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Re: Arao heads

Post by pdq67 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:14 am

peejay wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:21 pm
pdq67 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:39 pm
But, BTTT, I think that one big problem is that both the SB and the BB use 5 head bolts so they aren't 4 and in a square out of the way pattern. This makes putting different heads on our Chevy V-8 engines difficult if not mistaken.
And if you are looking at OHC engines, having the head bolt up front and center on the intake side eliminates one of the big benefits of going away from pushrods... No pushrod pinch!

I still love what Chevy did for their clean sheet Midget engine. They realized, hey, let's put the camshaft on the exhaust side of the engine! Get the cam lower to the ground and make room for big intake ports shaped however we want.
But one good thing about the Chevy engine head-bolt patterns, they seem to work DAMNED GOOD!!
...at warping the bores when you torque the heads down :lol:
What engine are you talking about?

pdq67

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Re: Arao heads

Post by midnightbluS10 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:09 am

2.7L 4 cylinder making 350 hp on methanol that uses R07 60mm cam core and same cam to crank centerline.


Image

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-081 ... et-engine/

At the maximum displacement of 166 cubic inches and in compliance of USAC rules, the Chevy engine runs methanol fuel. The inline four aluminum block has dry iron cylinder liners; the kind that are simply put in place and usually retained by the application of the head. This is opposed to a press fit where the sleeves are ‘frozen’ and temporarily shrunk in a freezing liquid such as nitrogen or CO2 and then squeezed into the block. ‘Dry’ sleeve technology allows the block to act much like a tool holder for all the engine’s components. Also, a damaged sleeve can easily be repaired-quite possibly at the track.

The engine uses a gear-driven mechanical roller camshaft and shares its 6.5-inch crankshaft-to-camshaft dimension and 60mm camshaft core diameter with the championship-winning Chevrolet R07 NASCAR engine. A bigger diameter cam will provide more finite cam designs, allowing for tuning to track applications.
JC - Precision Guesswork & Expert Up Arrow Manipulation

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:09 pm

Nice to see GM put some money into developing a new power plant for a great old grass roots racing tradition! Pretty nice results so far as given with over 2.0HP per cubic inch normally aspirated and I am sure it will creep up on 2.5 I am sure. Nothing works better than a clean sheet of paper, and the development bucks don't hurt either!
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Re: Arao heads

Post by Mark O'Neal » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:20 am

Newold1 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:11 am
I am sorry to rant a bit here but I and most others are so done with trying to fit exotic 32 valve heads on the good old SBC or BBC. They look cool in their nearly one off pictures on rods and what not but they have no real place in general performance aftermarket in today's uses or markets.

Why, because they are so fu*k*ng expensive, not effective and difficult to implement on these base engines that they make NO SENSE!

The horsepower and rpm levels achieved on these engine types with today's current aftermarket heads, valve train and induction systems makes it useless, foolish and misleading to think that the difficulty and huge expense of these parts and systems can create any net benefit in power or performance other than the " wow , cool factor!"

If you have a SBC or BBC that needs a lot more power or rpm, just study, research and use what's already available for these platforms. Unless you have a huge deep pocket and more time than experience then quit dreaming and contemplating these offerings or ideas and GET YOURSELF REAL!! :x
http://www.hammerheadperformanceengines.com/

928 H/P N/A 428ci Windsor. 6K complete. Not 32 valve but they have the look and certainty have the performance.

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Mark O'Neal » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:21 am

cuisinartvette wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:07 am
What happened to them, used to live down the st from his shop when they would run their camaro down lassen late at night testing

Did anyone pick up the patent and do anything with them?

VHS in northridge I think is doing something similar with a BBC head?

Russ sold that to a company in Torrance that started with an "S". They were a little visible for a couple of years and kinda vanished.

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Re: Arao heads

Post by JoePorting » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:41 am

What was the patent for? 32 valve V8's have been out for more than 20 years. Maybe it was a 32 valve head that could fit a stock SBC intake manifold?
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Re: Arao heads

Post by groberts101 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:22 am

JoePorting wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:41 am
What was the patent for? 32 valve V8's have been out for more than 20 years. Maybe it was a 32 valve head that could fit a stock SBC intake manifold?
Probably something to do with that clusterfluck of a rocker design. Lol

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:32 am

Mark,
Hammerhead has obviously spent some time and money with that cylinder head but I don't think you really picked up on the point of my soft rant.

If you would call or email Hammerhead I will bet the farm that head system for that Windsor is gonna be in the $8K -10K range COMPLETE and that's what I was talking about in my comments. There are quite a few limited production cylinder head systems out there for both Chevy and Ford small blocks and big blocks but they are very expensive systems and most are used by higher dollar racers and teams. The quantity of buyers and users is so limited as a percentage of the total high performance market that looking at many of these better products and thinking they are filling the NEED I was talking about in my posts really is without merit.

The one thing that still shows up with the better heads and manifolds is sort of confirmed again even by this head. The raised symmetrical ports, the rotated valve positions in the combustion chamber and a smaller combustion chamber are very much like the points I was making. The cost and complexity problem of these Hammerhead heads in my humble opinion is the complex valve train with that rocker system.

Some old Ford minds just can't get the old SOHC engine out of their minds! Why did that engine never stick and stay in the GENERAL performance market? Because it was a bit exotic, to expensive and a very troublesome to maintain from a valve train standpoint. Heck, the current Ford Nascar and Pro Stock heads show that there are some awesome OHV pushrod heads that fit in these categories but they as I mentioned are just to dam expensive for the average Ford performance enthusiast.

My comments and ideas come from a point of what I am trying to say is that there is a definite PLACE and NEED for some new moderate cost head and manifold designs for the SBC and BBC engines in use today by the high performance aftermarket.

Obviously it appears all the big cylinder head companies are way smarter than me. They think and do very well with OUT OF THE BOX "Race Technology " with their offerings but in my opinion they are not thinking OUT OF THE BOX when it comes to the needs of the "Big Market" for product like I am describing! :wink:

I am thinking along the lines of that Field of Dreams sort of mindset "IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME!"
The Older I Get, The Dumber I Get :wink:

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Mark O'Neal » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:24 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:32 am
Mark,
Hammerhead has obviously spent some time and money with that cylinder head but I don't think you really picked up on the point of my soft rant.

If you would call or email Hammerhead I will bet the farm that head system for that Windsor is gonna be in the $8K -10K range COMPLETE and that's what I was talking about in my comments. There are quite a few limited production cylinder head systems out there for both Chevy and Ford small blocks and big blocks but they are very expensive systems and most are used by higher dollar racers and teams. The quantity of buyers and users is so limited as a percentage of the total high performance market that looking at many of these better products and thinking they are filling the NEED I was talking about in my posts really is without merit.

The one thing that still shows up with the better heads and manifolds is sort of confirmed again even by this head. The raised symmetrical ports, the rotated valve positions in the combustion chamber and a smaller combustion chamber are very much like the points I was making. The cost and complexity problem of these Hammerhead heads in my humble opinion is the complex valve train with that rocker system.

Some old Ford minds just can't get the old SOHC engine out of their minds! Why did that engine never stick and stay in the GENERAL performance market? Because it was a bit exotic, to expensive and a very troublesome to maintain from a valve train standpoint. Heck, the current Ford Nascar and Pro Stock heads show that there are some awesome OHV pushrod heads that fit in these categories but they as I mentioned are just to dam expensive for the average Ford performance enthusiast.

My comments and ideas come from a point of what I am trying to say is that there is a definite PLACE and NEED for some new moderate cost head and manifold designs for the SBC and BBC engines in use today by the high performance aftermarket.

Obviously it appears all the big cylinder head companies are way smarter than me. They think and do very well with OUT OF THE BOX "Race Technology " with their offerings but in my opinion they are not thinking OUT OF THE BOX when it comes to the needs of the "Big Market" for product like I am describing! :wink:

I am thinking along the lines of that Field of Dreams sort of mindset "IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME!"

The Hammerhead setup is 6K, complete, which makes it reasonably competitive, and inexpensive for the capability.

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Re: Arao heads

Post by hoffman900 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:12 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:09 pm
Nice to see GM put some money into developing a new power plant for a great old grass roots racing tradition! Pretty nice results so far as given with over 2.0HP per cubic inch normally aspirated and I am sure it will creep up on 2.5 I am sure. Nothing works better than a clean sheet of paper, and the development bucks don't hurt either!
Those engines (and article) came out about 10 years ago. :wink:
-Bob

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:18 pm

Hey Mark
Glad you did some more fact finding and came up with some pricing for the Hammerhead system.

I did a little looking also and found a few more things. The basic head kit is between $6k to $6.3K depending on cam type, it requires a $150 distributor hold down, a new set of headers which will probably cost about $1500 being custom, new set of Hemi plug wires $190, a new set of ARP head bolts $150 and a nice new Jesel rocker set up at only $2200 so my math gets that $6k up to about $10K and that does not include the $2400 Hogan manifold if they are used on an LS engine.

Not exactly what I deem as affordable for a top end for an engine for the average performance enthusiast.

This is what I was pointing to that a well developed and thought out head system for SBC's and BBC's should be able to use existing headers, use a simple cast intake and all the other standard type hardware and come in at about $4K -$5k for some serious power levels and meet the needs of the masses. I know their are heads and intakes available now for these engines that can accomplish that easily but they end up costing that $9k to $10K to acquire.
If this type of top end can be developed and marketed I am sure the volumes that could be generated would keep the costs down and more affordable and still be a good profit center for the manufacturer and distributors.

The other thing I noticed Hammerhead is posting CFM's for the head but I see no HP/TQ numbers, dyno sheets or such for the heads actually in use?

As for the 10 year old article on that GM midget engine development and I would only say I did not pick up on that as I do not read HOT Rod Mag and I don't follow midget racing at all which is probably a bit of a loss for me as it's great exciting grass roots racing.
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Re: Arao heads

Post by pdq67 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:22 pm

That Hammerhead Ford 5.0 head looks like just a way open chambered Kaase head?? How far off am I??

Does anybody make something like the new Hammerhead, "slanted-hemi", head for a SBC? And not the stock SB copy of the BB head that they made years ago.

And I still say that if somebody made a real hemi-head for the SBC that used a MODERN designed SOHC set-up like the old Jeep Tornado 6-banger mail jeep engine used would be way neat!!

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/members/ ... ix_1-4.pdf

Might need to C&P into a search engine?

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Newold1 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:00 pm

What the heck pdq67, you are talking about something in print being discussed in 1962, unless I am mistaken that was over 50 years ago !!

We are discussing hopefully today's needs, technology and market. Excuse me but I don't really give a rats ass about what someone was doing with an antique 6 cylinder valve train in 1962 ! Why is it so hard for some on this forum to come into the present and discuss the needs of the market for parts and engines of today and hopefully tomorrow?
The Older I Get, The Dumber I Get :wink:

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Re: Arao heads

Post by Casper393W » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:32 pm

I have talked to Greg Brown (Hammerhead) and he has done his homework on those heads he made 928hp from 428 CI I would say they are impressive... The kit is all inclusive of the 6k

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Re: Arao heads

Post by pdq67 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:55 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:00 pm
What the heck pdq67, you are talking about something in print being discussed in 1962, unless I am mistaken that was over 50 years ago !!

We are discussing hopefully today's needs, technology and market. Excuse me but I don't really give a rats ass about what someone was doing with an antique 6 cylinder valve train in 1962 ! Why is it so hard for some on this forum to come into the present and discuss the needs of the market for parts and engines of today and hopefully tomorrow?
Again!!

"And I still say that if somebody made a real hemi-head for the SBC that used a MODERN designed SOHC set-up like the old Jeep Tornado 6-banger mail jeep engine used would be way neat!!"

Newold1,

Did you miss the word, "MODERN", in what I posted!!

Have you even bothered to look up what Pete Aardema has done and I figure still is with SOHC conversions??

pdq67

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