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Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:11 am
by hoffman900
So this really isn’t about the best one, just the one that can be made the biggest?

:roll:

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 am
by Frankshaft
Last time I checked, this is Speedtalk. Not best efficiency talk, or most technological talk, its speed talk. For raw power, and cost, and ease, its hard to beat the bbc. Give some examples, and why you think whatever you think is the best. I mean, great, a well built coyote n/a will make 600hp, and that's a serious effort that takes big rpm. A nothin special, thrown together bbc with pocket ported heads and a hydraulic roller will make that with ease. For cheap.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:35 am
by hoffman900
Right, but it’s also not Oldtalk, which it mostly seems to be, but I can play this game...

A friend of mine raced a 289 Cobra in the late ‘60s in SCCA B-Production. He was a multi time divisional champion, multiple lap record holder, etc.

He often beat and his lap records were faster at many tracks than the 427ci Cobras and Corvettes in A-Production.

In vintage racing, 2.0L 4cyl Chevrons can run with and beat 427ci Mclaren Can-Am cars at most tracks.

Are we racing dynos or actual vehicles?

That Coyote could go thousands of miles in that trim in sprint race condition. Your big block will come unglued pretty quickly outside of a dyno run and some drag strip passes.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:58 am
by bigpoppapreston
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubb ... -make.html

815hp 11.5:1 compression pump gas 438 Hemi. Outside of the 4 valve stuff, Hemi design especially the newer G3 Hemi heads are the best oem heads.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:18 am
by fdicrasto
Maybe if you set a max budget allowance and within that number see which OEM stuff makes the best combo?

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:46 am
by SchmidtMotorWorks
pdq67 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:57 am
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:37 am
A 2018 Ford Coyote is a vastly superior design to any of the antiques being discussed.
The DOHC jobber?

It is way too big/wide, imho.. Doesn't fit under too many hoods without a lot of work, plus it is still a small CI engine.

pdq67
Yep, easy to get 500 HP, run smoothly from idle to wide open at 7,400 rpm, meet current emissions laws and not require much maintenance.

The 1950s-60s engine designs were slapped together in a rush and would not pass a design review in the present time, in fact they would be what you might expect as a first attempt by an intern today (actually most interns would do better).

Most of those engines didn't have water passages around the chambers and exhaust ports.
The port castings were tooled by pattern makers that had no clue about ideal port shape.
BBC, has a hack-job of a head bolt and intake port layout.
BBF, 3" mains and 4-bolt head bolt pattern on such a large bore.
Hemi, huge valve angles, heavy pistons
429 Ford, long rocker arms.

It is easy to make aftermarket casting for those engines that improve them a lot.

Try that for a modern engine, it is difficult to match the performance of the OEM parts and extremely difficult to improve on them. In fact, for the RPM range that the engines were designed to run, it is mostly impossible to significantly improve on them. The opportunities for improvement mostly exist if you want to make them run differently, such as run them at higher RPM range.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:53 am
by SchmidtMotorWorks
Frankshaft wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 am
Last time I checked, this is Speedtalk. Not best efficiency talk, or most technological talk, its speed talk. For raw power, and cost, and ease, its hard to beat the bbc. Give some examples, and why you think whatever you think is the best. I mean, great, a well built coyote n/a will make 600hp, and that's a serious effort that takes big rpm. A nothin special, thrown together bbc with pocket ported heads and a hydraulic roller will make that with ease. For cheap.
Have you ever had a chance to be around a BBC and a Coyote running in side by side dyno cells?
The contrast is huge.

Things have improved a lot in 50 years.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:13 pm
by MTENGINES
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:53 am
Frankshaft wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 am
Last time I checked, this is Speedtalk. Not best efficiency talk, or most technological talk, its speed talk. For raw power, and cost, and ease, its hard to beat the bbc. Give some examples, and why you think whatever you think is the best. I mean, great, a well built coyote n/a will make 600hp, and that's a serious effort that takes big rpm. A nothin special, thrown together bbc with pocket ported heads and a hydraulic roller will make that with ease. For cheap.
Have you ever had a chance to be around a BBC and a Coyote running in side by side dyno cells?
The contrast is huge.

Things have improved a lot in 50 years.
As a matter of fact I have.. what are you getting at? One was onthe chassis dyno. The othr was on the engine dyno. The big block made 1170 crank. The coyote made 440 wheel.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:19 pm
by SchmidtMotorWorks
MTENGINES wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:13 pm
As a matter of fact I have.. what are you getting at? One was onthe chassis dyno. The othr was on the engine dyno. The big block made 1170 crank. The coyote made 440 wheel.
On side by side engine dynos, engines of similar power, the OHV engines sound rough and crude (and pollute) by comparison to the DOHC engines with variable valve timing.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:38 pm
by Bos's5.0
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:19 pm
MTENGINES wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:13 pm
As a matter of fact I have.. what are you getting at? One was onthe chassis dyno. The othr was on the engine dyno. The big block made 1170 crank. The coyote made 440 wheel.
On side by side engine dynos, engines of similar power, the OHV engines sound rough and crude by comparison to the DOHC engines with variable valve timing.
I run a chevy.. you know Dart block, Eagle crank & rods, ross pistons, dart heads, dart intake, Comp rockers, Holley XP... but it's still a chevy.. uh huh :^o
I run a Coyote Boss.. you know stock block, crank, rods, pistons, heads, intake, cams, computer, injectors, throttle body and I just had it emissioned.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:01 pm
by englertracing
Frankshaft wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:53 am
This is what I was hoping for with this thread. Keep it up =D> . Anyhow, I have worked on them all, so, I have a unique perspective. Believe me, I am well aware of what a hemi mopar can do. But, still, .100 over 454 4 bolt block, gm steel crank with some slugs in it for internal balance, that's 470 inches, throw in some main studs, and maybe a little block filler, and that block will handle a lot of power. 990 rectangle ports, with a good port job, angle mill, dowel shift, big valve etc, can flow 385-390 cfm. One of the other factors, cost. Its hard to beat. That pretty much throws the hemi out the window. As far as the coyote, yes, they are impressive. But, again, they are 302 inches. It aint hanging. Horsepower/inch, sure it wins, but that's not what I am talking about. Ls7's, another cool engine, but even with all that technology, that dinosaur still will make more power.
Tell me
What happens if you did the same jobber to some boss 429 heads on a 460 block?

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:02 pm
by IDT-572
I cant believe the Dooe-R Ford big block head hasn't been brought up. Some were talking 990's on a .100 over 454.

Well a good set of ported SCJ's will flow over 400 cfm and in the right hands 410-415 un welded no filler.

Put these on a 4.500 bore 4 bolt main Dove A block, with a stock 3.850 stroke oem cast crank = 490 inches.

Big bore, short stroke, and with the correct roller cam, I am sure it will make power with any BBC 990 deal out there.

Around here the truck pulls are ruled by Ford in the 470 inch oem block and head classes.

Thing is you cant compare, 70's muscle to todays engines.............. [-X

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:58 pm
by Frankshaft
IDT-572 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:02 pm
I cant believe the Dooe-R Ford big block head hasn't been brought up. Some were talking 990's on a .100 over 454.

Well a good set of ported SCJ's will flow over 400 cfm and in the right hands 410-415 un welded no filler.

Put these on a 4.500 bore 4 bolt main Dove A block, with a stock 3.850 stroke oem cast crank = 490 inches.

Big bore, short stroke, and with the correct roller cam, I am sure it will make power with any BBC 990 deal out there.

Around here the truck pulls are ruled by Ford in the 470 inch oem block and head classes.

Thing is you cant compare, 70's muscle to todays engines.............. [-X
You make a good debate. Forgot about those heads. But, I still said stock rods. The stock Ford rods are pretty shitty.

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:07 pm
by IDT-572
Frankshaft wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:58 pm
IDT-572 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:02 pm
I cant believe the Dooe-R Ford big block head hasn't been brought up. Some were talking 990's on a .100 over 454.

Well a good set of ported SCJ's will flow over 400 cfm and in the right hands 410-415 un welded no filler.

Put these on a 4.500 bore 4 bolt main Dove A block, with a stock 3.850 stroke oem cast crank = 490 inches.

Big bore, short stroke, and with the correct roller cam, I am sure it will make power with any BBC 990 deal out there.

Around here the truck pulls are ruled by Ford in the 470 inch oem block and head classes.

Thing is you cant compare, 70's muscle to todays engines.............. [-X
You make a good debate. Forgot about those heads. But, I still said stock rods. The stock Ford rods are pretty shitty.
True, good bolts and enough oil clearance to keep the rod bearing from pinching at the parting lines helps a bunch. Ford had rods with 7/16 bolts, but doubt it wouldn't be readily avaliable now.

I like the way you think :wink:

Re: Best engine??

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:08 pm
by cgarb
I would take that bet on a stock BBF rod...not as shitty as you would think. They are heavy as hell but pretty beefy. I think a well prepped set with bolts would hang in there just fine. Might be a service item at those HP levels, but back in the day everything was a service item to make good power.