Best engine??

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Ken_Parkman
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Re: Best engine??

Post by Ken_Parkman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:29 am

A set of rules for discussion could be power capability of a commonly available production platform from back in the day. No question the modern stuff is worlds ahead than the old stuff, but it's more fun to improve old stuff. Also no question the low production race upgrades will make more power, but the average guy couldn't have those.

With the above rules my vote would be for the BBF 385 as a big block, and the AMC as a small block. Obviously a BBC is a tremendous engine, but there is a lot of BBF's making huge power with basic factory parts (relatively) cheap. As a small block there could be an argument for the Cleveland Ford, and obviously those heads can make big power. They just needed a better block to bolt to. Cause AMC could not afford multiple engine packages every 390 and 401 got the good block, crank, and rods, and the heads are an excellent wedge design for back in the day, way ahead of the SBC/F/M. The 390 SS/C AMX's are always fast although those were low production with trick intakes, but the block/crank/rods were the same. Stock blocks and cranks have been over 1000 hp, so the basic strength is there and iron heads go over 600 hp with (relative) ease.

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Re: Best engine??

Post by Truckedup » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:56 am

hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:19 am
Oh absolutely. I just meant potential and that potential is just really tied into the fact you can boost the I4s a lot easier.

The single cylinder motocross bikes are making near 2.55hp/ci in race trim. They’re tractable and are abused terribly.

Most of those 9 and 10 second machines will cost you about as much as a hot crate motor and a good transmission for most cars. They’ll also get you around a road course really freaking fast if you have the skills. Then get you to the cafe afterwards. And all under warranty.
Oh I understand and a Japanese inline is the most cost effective for making big power.Even a properly built Harley can give 1.6 HP per cube with reliability and street manners...But this is really a thread about OHV V8 engines :D ..I have to say a SBC or LS just because of power at a reasonable cost...
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Re: Best engine??

Post by DanE1 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:50 am

Newold1 wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:43 pm
You gotta be kidding me! A stock ( really stock) BBC ZL1 427 factory issued engine will blow that stock 429-460 "In the Weeds!" Dude!
How's that for bench rac'in talk! :lol:
F.A.S.T. Racing
Factory Appearing Stock Tire Racing.

The car racing in this series has to appear stock right down to the carb, intake manifold, and exhaust manifold and system. Stock heads and block. And the tires have to be stock as delivered from the factory, no soft rubber, ect.

At first, it was thought that the corvette (L88, ZL1) would be a top performer because of it's superior weight distribution and powerful engines. Not so. Not enough power

The Hemi Road Runner proved to a better performer and was running bottom 10's in the quarter. Hard to believe that a car of that size and tire (G 60 15 fiberglass belted tire) could run that fast.

Then Lane Carey came along with his 1971, SCJ 429 Mustang and ran 9.84/139+. The Mustang has been torn down many times and is legal.
The 429 block that is strong and can be taken out to just under/over 600 cubic inches.
Stock heads that can be valved and ported to flow over 400 CFM's.
A single 4 barrel intake manifold that can be ported to feed the heads.
And a cast exhaust manifold that when ported can handle enough power to handle 139+ MPH in a relatively heavy car.

As many of us here have alluded to, when restricted to stock heads, block, and crank, the 385 series engine (429/460) is hard to beat.

More bench Rac'in talk.
Not going in the weeds yet, "DUDE 8)

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Re: Best engine??

Post by tt 383 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:26 pm

If we are talking strictly stock parts available in vehicles I would take a BBC 502 and insert 8100 vortec crank. PITA for a cast crank but supposedly possible. Keep it under 6500? Or a stroked/bored ZL1 keeping the huge weight advantage
Last edited by tt 383 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best engine??

Post by CamKing » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:59 pm

4cyl Offy
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Re: Best engine??

Post by IDT-572 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:19 pm

DanE1 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:50 am
Newold1 wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:43 pm
You gotta be kidding me! A stock ( really stock) BBC ZL1 427 factory issued engine will blow that stock 429-460 "In the Weeds!" Dude!
How's that for bench rac'in talk! :lol:
F.A.S.T. Racing
Factory Appearing Stock Tire Racing.

The car racing in this series has to appear stock right down to the carb, intake manifold, and exhaust manifold and system. Stock heads and block. And the tires have to be stock as delivered from the factory, no soft rubber, ect.

At first, it was thought that the corvette (L88, ZL1) would be a top performer because of it's superior weight distribution and powerful engines. Not so. Not enough power

The Hemi Road Runner proved to a better performer and was running bottom 10's in the quarter. Hard to believe that a car of that size and tire (G 60 15 fiberglass belted tire) could run that fast.

Then Lane Carey came along with his 1971, SCJ 429 Mustang and ran 9.84/139+. The Mustang has been torn down many times and is legal.
The 429 block that is strong and can be taken out to just under/over 600 cubic inches.
Stock heads that can be valved and ported to flow over 400 CFM's.
A single 4 barrel intake manifold that can be ported to feed the heads.
And a cast exhaust manifold that when ported can handle enough power to handle 139+ MPH in a relatively heavy car.

As many of us here have alluded to, when restricted to stock heads, block, and crank, the 385 series engine (429/460) is hard to beat.

More bench Rac'in talk.
Not going in the weeds yet, "DUDE 8)


460 FORD: Best kept secret since 1968 ! ! ! ! ! ! but the word is spreading fast, get on board 8)

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Re: Best engine??

Post by Cris » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:30 pm

"At first, it was thought that the corvette (L88, ZL1) would be a top performer because of it's superior weight distribution and powerful engines. Not so. Not enough power."

Not quite so. When F.A.S.T racing started, the big chevy did dominate. Wayne Nelson was the guy to beat early on, handing it to many of the Hemi racers. He even attended the Mopar Nationals one year and beat the entire field in his blue C3 Corvette.

But time marches on, the class is now very sophisticated and trick. Accessories are machined out of aluminum and then painted to look like (stock) steel. Most gauges and accessories only have a cover on them with the guts removed. I wont even venture a guess what they are doing to bodies and frames to pull weight out.

A really cool racing class.

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Re: Best engine??

Post by Truckedup » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:05 pm

Cris wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:30 pm
"At first, it was thought that the corvette (L88, ZL1) would be a top performer because of it's superior weight distribution and powerful engines. Not so. Not enough power."

Not quite so. When F.A.S.T racing started, the big chevy did dominate. Wayne Nelson was the guy to beat early on, handing it to many of the Hemi racers. He even attended the Mopar Nationals one year and beat the entire field in his blue C3 Corvette.

But time marches on, the class is now very sophisticated and trick. Accessories are machined out of aluminum and then painted to look like (stock) steel. Most gauges and accessories only have a cover on them with the guts removed. I wont even venture a guess what they are doing to bodies and frames to pull weight out.

A really cool racing class.
Sounds like a lot of altered stock or close to stock racing classes, it just turns into a battle of tricks fueled by money and in the end it's nothing like what it started out to be..
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

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Re: Best engine??

Post by rfoll » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:17 pm

Way back when there was an article in HRM about the fastest street car... a Maverick with a Roush built 500 something registered to the guy's grandmother. Then someone had a Lenco equipped hemi Challenger that was some kind of mystery. Soon they had a contest somewhere, and a late 60s Firebird Formula 400 whipped them all.
So much to do, so little time...

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Re: Best engine??

Post by S10LS2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:38 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:11 am
So this really isn’t about the best one, just the one that can be made the biggest?

:roll:
You are talking with a guy who has worked on em all and knows them all very well. :roll: Loves to see himself post. Stupid question he asked , and has been challenged twice already and lost.. As long as he can keep adding bore and stroke to his dream bbc, he wins.. Great thread there frankfurter. A thread more suited for the lounge, or trash section if they had one here,not real technical..
=D>

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Re: Best engine??

Post by Cris » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:31 pm

"Way back when there was an article in HRM about the fastest street car... a Maverick with a Roush built 500 something registered to the guy's grandmother. Then someone had a Lenco equipped hemi Challenger that was some kind of mystery. Soon they had a contest somewhere, and a late 60s Firebird Formula 400 whipped them all."

I believe you are talking about Steve Lisk's Hemi Challenger and Joe Ruggirello's Mustang II. These were the two baddest street racers in Detroit in the late 70's. The serious street racing scene had moved from Woodward Avenue to the Nugget restaurant out near the I-696 freeway. There, late at night, racers would meet at the Nugget to set up races. Many would trailer in to a few blocks away and drive their "street cars" in to the parking lot at the Nugget. I was there one of the nights those two cars ran. They pulled onto the freeway with several support cars to block freeway traffic. There was an old station wagon with a makeshift Christmas tree mounted on the back. That night the Challenger won, and I don't know if they ever settled the score, but these cars, for that time, were over the top.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/t ... ed-feature

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Re: Best engine??

Post by numboltz » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:16 pm

This is my favorite argument in the history of the universe, because everyone comes to
the gunfight with lots of ammo and thus the argument can go on for ever. I do however, lament
the fact that this argument has moved to the internet. While getting more folks involved, the
loss of traditional venue is an even bigger loss. The traditional venue, of course, is any place
that offers beer [that you buy =D> ] in any volume needed.

In the interest of stirring the pot and keeping the argument going, I would like to add that the
argument of 2 vs 4 valves per cylinder was "settled" back in the olden days when military
aviation was really interested in piston engines. The Air Corps had a long running development
program aimed at maximum HP per cubic inch, which was called the Hyper program, which later
morphed into the Hyper 2 program and was the basis, among other things, for the super-quick
development of the original Chrysler Hemi during WW2. One of the things they found was that
2 valves/cylinder was as good as 4 in selected situations.

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Re: Best engine??

Post by pdq67 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:41 am

Whatever happened to the yellow Camaro that had a long pointed thin triangular black stripe down each side?

I think it was from Chicago??

I think it was a '69??

All I remember about it was that back then, it was bad to the bone!

pdq67

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Re: Best engine??

Post by Truckedup » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:24 am

numboltz wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:16 pm
This is my favorite argument in the history of the universe, because everyone comes to
the gunfight with lots of ammo and thus the argument can go on for ever. I do however, lament
the fact that this argument has moved to the internet. While getting more folks involved, the
loss of traditional venue is an even bigger loss. The traditional venue, of course, is any place
that offers beer [that you buy =D> ] in any volume needed.

In the interest of stirring the pot and keeping the argument going, I would like to add that the
argument of 2 vs 4 valves per cylinder was "settled" back in the olden days when military
aviation was really interested in piston engines. The Air Corps had a long running development
program aimed at maximum HP per cubic inch, which was called the Hyper program, which later
morphed into the Hyper 2 program and was the basis, among other things, for the super-quick
development of the original Chrysler Hemi during WW2. One of the things they found was that
2 valves/cylinder was as good as 4 in selected situations.
Yes,..... but the highest HP per cubic inch aircraft engines of WW2 that were used in actual service were all liquid cooled four valve engines..
The Hemi combustion chamber was nothing new and first seen around 1910. ..Most all production OHV motorcycle engines used a hemi head since the early 1930's and all radial aircraft engines since just after WW1...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

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Re: Best engine??

Post by Frankshaft » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:28 am

Other criteria remember, is availability. Sure hemi's are great, but good luck finding one. If you do, you could send one of your kids to college for a year or 2 for what you will pay for it and redo it. Same with the ford, as far as availability for the trick heads they had. I get it, the ford has a 4.9 bore space and a bigger cam core stock, bot, I didn't say you can't machine the tunnel for a bigger core.

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