Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by FC-Pilot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:35 pm

statsystems wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:39 pm
Guy running the dyno is wearing a suit. I love it.
I guess I will have to get a shot of me in a suit and tie running the dyno one of these days. LOL Just because we can.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by tchapps88 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:46 pm

For some reason wasnt there a shootout within the last 10 years i recall reading now between the 350, 351w and 360 where they had to use a factory head and keep to a strict budget?, i think it was vortec vs gt40p vs magnum and chevy won that one

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout AK MILLER ARTICLE

Post by grandsport51 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:38 pm

Link to Akton Miller Muscle
Parts article!

http://www.mustangtek.com/Library3/HR_70-08.html
LIGHT 'EM UP

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout AK MILLER ARTICLE

Post by Casper393W » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:14 pm

grandsport51 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:38 pm
Link to Akton Miller Muscle
Parts article!

http://www.mustangtek.com/Library3/HR_70-08.html
Yup that is the Cleveland article I was talking about!
Thanks for sharing this.. You must remember everyone thought the Windsor was just a Station wagon piece...if you wanted to go fast with a 351 you went with the Cleveland....heck it was hard getting a 351w camshaft up until the late 80's. People always ran 289/302 cams in them back in the day.

Once the Cleveland parts dried up and the 5.0 scene came on in the late 80's we got the original Allen Root heads and things started to change...and the rest is history...

Andy

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout AK MILLER ARTICLE

Post by plovett » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:44 pm

grandsport51 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:38 pm
Link to Akton Miller Muscle
Parts article!

http://www.mustangtek.com/Library3/HR_70-08.html
Thanks! It's interesting to see what could be easily done, back in the day.

paulie

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Steve.k » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:48 pm

Geoff2 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:04 am
I used to regularly drag race against 351Cs in the 1970s. It was not uncommon to see a Cleveland going home on a flat bed....another one that dropped a valve. A common problem.

In circle track here in Oz, they kept blowing engines, until extensive modifications were done to the oiling system. I also saw other 'modifications' to improve them. Intake port floors Devconed because the ports were too large [ Ford Australia cast new heads, with smaller intake ports ]; also saw a 1" slab machined off the exh side of the heads & then fitted with a 1" alum piece to angle the exh port up because the stock port flowed poorly. Intake ports that were too large for street engines & a restrictive exh port, hardly an engineering masterpiece....

'Course you can buy aftermarket heads & other parts for all the popular engines, but are they really still a Chevy or a Ford? I saw a brand X build up the other day, touting big HP #s. About the only brand X parts on it were the oil pan bolts.....Everything else was aftermarket.
The stock cleveland head was and for the most part was way ahead of its time. The valve dropping you speak of was not only a cleveland problem it was the whole ford hyd valve motor problem. The valve was two piece and would let go below the grooves. The Cleveland 2.19 valve was heavier than most which didn't help. The 69 Windsor hi perf head would likely get you to 400-450 ish hp.The Windsor was no slouch however after the above hp it was all over. No available heads to get you farther so alot used the Cleveland on Windsor. I ran the multi groove valves for years with solid cam and on lost one engine. That motor made around 525hp with basically a cam swap and intake. Stock rods and crank with sps rod bolts. There is no stock 350 cube cast iron head that will flow anywhere close. And once you port its way ahead. The aftermarket heads have tough time competing with a fully prepped cast iron c head. No doubt the stock c motors were very tame from factory. However dial up timing curve open exh and it was whole different animal.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Truckedup » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:36 pm

I'm assuming the 315C was used in Nascar in the 70 and 80's ? If so, what went on between the SBC and Cleveland when Nascar had engines based on production engines? Was the Cleveland restricted or banned so the Chevy would be competitive?
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Steve.k » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:44 pm

I know Bill elliot ran the Cleveland in 85 and was first car to win million. I think the Cleveland was in production in Australia till 87 or so. Not exactly sure when they switched to Windsor block. Im thinking the block elliot had was a hybrid Motorsport by then.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Bos's5.0 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:54 pm

Steve.k wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:44 pm
I know Bill elliot ran the Cleveland in 85 and was first car to win million. I think the Cleveland was in production in Australia till 87 or so. Not exactly sure when they switched to Windsor block. Im thinking the block elliot had was a hybrid Motorsport by then.
What people really wanted was the Cleveland main size and the Windsor oiling system. The Cleveland is a big deal in Australia. They never took to the Windsor and were supplied Cleveland parts for a LONG time.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Geoff2 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:19 am

Steve.k,
If failing valves was a WHOLE problem for hyd cammed Fords, it does not say much for Ford engineering!! Hardly a compliment or excuse. These engines we sold as performance engines & should have had reliable parts. In my opinion, the 351 C was a failure as a street engine & a race engine. Any fool can make a head with huge ports. Ford repeated the error with the 429.
As a street engine, the 351C lacked torque & was sluggish. As a race engine, it reqd oiling mods to live. I don't see any success there.....
Just because the heads have big ports...and flow....is useless unless that flow translates into reliable power.
I am not disputing that 351Cs can be made to produce big HP, but won't last long if the parts are stock.

My 64 Plymouth Belvedere with a stock 2bbl 318, with Poly Spherical chambered heads knocked off a 351 GT-HO XY Falcon up to about 80 mph..... Chrysler got the port sizing correct...

351Cs were raced extensively here in Australia. Here are some quotes from people who raced them & tuned them. Canadian born Allan Moffat was probably the most famous Ford driver & Ford brought out an American, Al Turner, to ' fix' the problems.

" The cars [ Ford Falcons ] were plagued with problems....starting with Moffat's customary engine blow up in practice." "..the engine started to sound rough"
" Moffat's engine blew 15 laps from the finish & Bond's car [ 351C ] started sounding rough with the engine coughing & backfiring."

" Again Moffat blew an engine during Friday practice. He blew another one on Staurday after just three laps." "Bond's engine sounded progressively worse & finally blew up on lap 48."

" Clearly, finding enough HP was never going to be a problem; finding reliability caused a lot of heartache & consumed a huge number of dollars. Ford literally blew up dozens of these exotic engines chasing reliability..."

" Another nagging developmental bug with these unique engines was excessive oil temp. The problem was ultimately cured when it was discovered that the big end journals on the Cleveland were so large that they generated a tremendous amount if friction- & therefore heat- when revved hard."
" ...changed to a smaller bearing size of a 302 & the heat was reduced. This alteration also reqd use of a longer connecting rod, which in turn gave slower piston speeds & less heat so the engines stopped destroying rods, pistons & gudgeon pins."

The Boss 429.

From Roger Huntington:

" Boss 429 had huge round intake ports.....& definitely too big for the street!"

Boss on the street.
" It would be nice if I could say that the new Boss 429 went out & beat Chrysler's nasty old Hemi hands down. It didn't work out quite that way. Those Shotgun ports were just way to big for the street" [ Seems Ford learned nothing from the 351C huge ports ] " The street boss 429 didn't perform really well anywhere in the speed range,"

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by tchapps88 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:52 am

Steve.k wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:44 pm
I know Bill elliot ran the Cleveland in 85 and was first car to win million. I think the Cleveland was in production in Australia till 87 or so. Not exactly sure when they switched to Windsor block. Im thinking the block elliot had was a hybrid Motorsport by then.
i have looked into it into the past and the best i came up with was 1991 was first year for the windsor and all ford teams struggled that year, mid way through the season they told all the ford teams to come up with an idea or even build a head they think they should use for 92 and the yates head won which i guess you could say it was a clevor since it had canted valves, ford teams would go on to use the windsor block and yates heads with minor updates over the years all the way through 2009? i think the fr9 was out at the end of 09 and a few select teams ran them while playoff teams stayed with the older engines and then they all used fr9's in 2010 if memory serves me right.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Steve.k » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:28 am

Geoff2 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:19 am
Steve.k,
If failing valves was a WHOLE problem for hyd cammed Fords, it does not say much for Ford engineering!! Hardly a compliment or excuse. These engines we sold as performance engines & should have had reliable parts. In my opinion, the 351 C was a failure as a street engine & a race engine. Any fool can make a head with huge ports. Ford repeated the error with the 429.
As a street engine, the 351C lacked torque & was sluggish. As a race engine, it reqd oiling mods to live. I don't see any success there.....
Just because the heads have big ports...and flow....is useless unless that flow translates into reliable power.
I am not disputing that 351Cs can be made to produce big HP, but won't last long if the parts are stock.

My 64 Plymouth Belvedere with a stock 2bbl 318, with Poly Spherical chambered heads knocked off a 351 GT-HO XY Falcon up to about 80 mph..... Chrysler got the port sizing correct...

351Cs were raced extensively here in Australia. Here are some quotes from people who raced them & tuned them. Canadian born Allan Moffat was probably the most famous Ford driver & Ford brought out an American, Al Turner, to ' fix' the problems.

" The cars [ Ford Falcons ] were plagued with problems....starting with Moffat's customary engine blow up in practice." "..the engine started to sound rough"
" Moffat's engine blew 15 laps from the finish & Bond's car [ 351C ] started sounding rough with the engine coughing & backfiring."

" Again Moffat blew an engine during Friday practice. He blew another one on Staurday after just three laps." "Bond's engine sounded progressively worse & finally blew up on lap 48."

" Clearly, finding enough HP was never going to be a problem; finding reliability caused a lot of heartache & consumed a huge number of dollars. Ford literally blew up dozens of these exotic engines chasing reliability..."

" Another nagging developmental bug with these unique engines was excessive oil temp. The problem was ultimately cured when it was discovered that the big end journals on the Cleveland were so large that they generated a tremendous amount if friction- & therefore heat- when revved hard."
" ...changed to a smaller bearing size of a 302 & the heat was reduced. This alteration also reqd use of a longer connecting rod, which in turn gave slower piston speeds & less heat so the engines stopped destroying rods, pistons & gudgeon pins."

The Boss 429.

From Roger Huntington:

" Boss 429 had huge round intake ports.....& definitely too big for the street!"

Boss on the street.
" It would be nice if I could say that the new Boss 429 went out & beat Chrysler's nasty old Hemi hands down. It didn't work out quite that way. Those Shotgun ports were just way to big for the street" [ Seems Ford learned nothing from the 351C huge ports ] " The street boss 429 didn't perform really well anywhere in the speed range,"
Geoff 2 fords single groove valve was not a issue which all solid lifter fords had and that included the boss351. Only the multi groove which for the most part were trouble free until spring pressure and rpm got up. The Cleveland oiling system worked fine until rpm got 6500+ The Cleveland oiling problems only showed up after high milage and would leak past the lifters in bores. As for street racing the Cleveland did get a bad rap as it did not have the the hard charge out of gate like most engines with their dinky intake ports. In most cases this was a benefit as the car wouldn't spin hard out of hole but when you hit 3000 look out. I raced lots of these on street and in 3700 lb car ran with most of the competitions big blocks. If you care to look up the Boss 351 mag articles it was tested and ended up being The fastest 1/4 mile car from ford. Thats saying a ton when you consider the early 427-428 fords. Of course this is show room trim and we all know a massage 428 cj put the hurt on it pretty easy. There are alot of myths about the Cleveland and I've ran them a ton with very good success. There is a group of us that contributed to the new Trackboss block and any of the short comings have been addressed. This block will definitely get us where we need to be.The cleveland rod journal is same as 351w and the Windsor uses bigger 3" main. Only 302 is 2.12.As for the Boss 9 its a well known fact it was built solely for nascar. It was only adapted to street to meet the 500 car rule. In the right hands it could be made a killer on street.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Barry_R » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:33 am

This thread went sideways quickly. Although I mainly deal with FE Fords, I have some Cleveland experience. Back in the proverbial day quite a few of us Detroit guys had Cleveland and Windsor 4V powered cars as second owners when such vehicles were fairly inexpensive (gas price deal).

A 1970ish 4v Cleveland would pretty much INCINERATE a similar 4V Windsor car on the street. Like others I can recite a story...

One friend had a perfect low mileage 1973 Mach1 - lame 2bbl deal. Over a weekend in +/-1975 we installed a set of 1970 4bbl closed chamber heads, a used aluminum intake, a $29.95 Gratiot Auto cam, and a set of headers. Car was transformed - felt fast and racked up plenty of street wins - but never ran at the track so who knows. Few years later he decided to "restore" & sell the still perfect Mach so he traded the complete engine to another guy who had a normal cheapo Mustang with a good running 2bbl engine. In car #2 the package was used as a hot daily driver for another five years. Sometime around 1982 the now 100,000+ mile old C motor in its new home finally made a trip to Lapeer Dragway along with my car and another friend's 442 as a "what the heck I will come too" sort of thing. Of course the tired Cleveland in the 3.25 geared single spin rusty Mustang kicked both of our asses with a string of middle 13 second tire blazing passes...and drove back home for more years of street service.

So in summary - the Cleveland oiling system was apparently adequate. The Cleveland cylinder walls were apparently thick enough. And the 4 bbl heads were apparently not too large to perform well even with tight gears, a stock converter, and a crappy FMX automatic.
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by blykins » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:46 am

Barry_R wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:33 am
This thread went sideways quickly.
What did you expect? It's Speedtalk.......
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Steve.k » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:21 pm

I asked the historians at 351c.net about the 351c and 351w over lap. As always george had alot of the history. http://351c.net/board/index.php?/topic/ ... cleveland/

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