Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

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blykins
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by blykins » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:41 pm

Frankshaft wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:30 pm
Steve.k wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:12 am
Id like to see a run off of the boat anchors 400ford, chevy, dodge, pontiac etc. That would be interesting. Even stick with stocker 2v ford head.
Using 2v heads would make it a little more fair, but still no contest. A set of basic 3514v heads, valve job, and a throat cut with zero porting will make over 600hp.
Amen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpAUnqZmKw

Made 580 hp with a custom cam grinder's cam and made 615 with one of my own grinds. No port work, just a good valve job. Big cam. Little bit of compression. A lot longer rod than anybody would ever put in a Cleveland. A lot shorter piston than anybody would ever put in a Cleveland.
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brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.lykinsmotorsports.com

past midnight
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by past midnight » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:03 pm

turdwilly wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:31 am
Bos's5.0 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:55 am
past midnight wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:56 am


This one kind off gets my goat.
One of my customers told me this in 2003 I proved it wrong then and that fact has not changed.
If you think this is true you need to find a new place to by your ford parts.
Yes I know there are companies out there that still hose the Ford guys big time. But there are those that won't!
I believe it's still true and without digging into your 2003 build (15 years ago by the way) then there is no way to tell just what you built.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31365235 ---FORD dart SHP $2099.54
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31162211 ---Chevy Dart SHP $1718.26

When it comes to heads they are sometimes very close in prices if not identical. But it depends on manufacturer. Plus there are far more choices available for the Chevy.
If you're using a bunch of factory junk you could probably do alright.

To further expound...

Intakes
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7581/overview/ ---Ford Rpm Air Gap $326.81
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7501/overview/ ---Chevy Rpm Air Gap $259.32

Stock stroke Scat forged rotating assembly (all other parameters input the same except for 3.48" stroke for Chevy & 3.50" stroke for Ford - i.e. forged flat top pistons, h-beam rods, 4340 crank, internal balance, etc, etc.)

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca- ... /overview/ ---Ford $2311.97
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca- ... /overview/ ---Chevy $2082.97



So difference in cost is about 18% on the blocks, about 21% on the intakes, 10% on rotating assemblies.
Oh you guys found examples, that's not surprising at all.
You can cherry pick anything.
Just for argument sake take the block +$380 +$60 intake
$230 kit, pretty much everything else is equal except maybe oil pans so $700 on what a $14000+ engine? Everyone acts like its $5000 more for the ford!

With that said here is my world
Intakes are the worst there is no choice ford guys take it in the shorts.
Dart blocks I would sell either of those blocks to my customer who is doing a complete engine with me for $1700, Rotating kit $2000
and pretty much all remaining parts equal price.
Valves, springs, retainers, locks, pushrods, timing chain, etc etc and so on all equal cost there is no difference at the bottom line.

I am a one man shop have done over 500 complete engines since 2003 90% dirt oval race engines and about equal ford and chevy. I know what it costs to build and what I sell for.
I don't buy parts from SUMMITT.
As said in my first post
"Yes I know there are companies out there that still hose the Ford guys big time. But there are those that won't!"
And I stand by my OP

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by turdwilly » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:40 pm

QUOTE

"Oh you guys found examples, that's not surprising at all.
You can cherry pick anything.
Just for argument sake take the block +$380 +$60 intake
$230 kit, pretty much everything else is equal except maybe oil pans so $700 on what a $14000+ engine? Everyone acts like its $5000 more for the ford!

With that said here is my world
Intakes are the worst there is no choice ford guys take it in the shorts.
Dart blocks I would sell either of those blocks to my customer who is doing a complete engine with me for $1700, Rotating kit $2000
and pretty much all remaining parts equal price.
Valves, springs, retainers, locks, pushrods, timing chain, etc etc and so on all equal cost there is no difference at the bottom line.

I am a one man shop have done over 500 complete engines since 2003 90% dirt oval race engines and about equal ford and chevy. I know what it costs to build and what I sell for.
I don't buy parts from SUMMITT.
As said in my first post
"Yes I know there are companies out there that still hose the Ford guys big time. But there are those that won't!"
And I stand by my OP

[/quote]"

These are generic parts - not Chevy/Ford specific - so yes, they are the same cost.

I didn't do any deep research to "find my examples". I merely went to the same website that the other guy posted the Dart block prices from & checked their prices on the SAME intakes used in the OP's test, & for comparison sake I grabbed the rotating assemblies for both engines as well. There is a difference in price.

You said the valve train parts, etc, etc are the same price - well you can't build the 2 types of engines with all the same generic parts - you still have to buy non-generic, OEM-specific parts to complete the build also, such as water pump, oil pump, pan & pick up, timing cover, pulleys, brackets, etc, etc, etc. And I guarantee you 90% of THOSE parts that you buy are to some degree more expensive for a Ford than a Chevy. It's not for any asinine reason, it's simply because of supply & demand - there are a lot more Chevy parts being sold so they can afford to sell them cheaper - and it's WAY closer than it was 30+ years ago - the gap began closing with the creation & popularity of the hoards of 5.0 Mustangs in the late 80's/early 90's & it grew from there. The nickel & dime stuff makes a big difference by the time you're done - it all adds up for someone on a budget.

Perhaps you buy your parts wholesale? The average joe like me that doesn't do this for a living doesn't get those discounts for buying large quantities of parts from a wholesale distributor. Or maybe have just done this long enough that you have found retail suppliers that offer better pricing for Ford stuff, but not Chevy stuff? But I would wager most hobbyists like me that just do this stuff for fun & only builds an engine every once in a while still buys a lot of run of the mill stuff from large retailers like summit, jegs, etc. I won't buy from summit anymore as they royally pissed me off recently, but I do still buy some stuff from jegs.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Casper393W » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:31 pm

The article was very well written but the "Dyno" testing was a 5th wheel mounted on the car and they measured acceleration over a given distance...
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by statsystems » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:39 pm

Casper393W wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:31 pm
The article was very well written but the "Dyno" testing was a 5th wheel mounted on the car and they measured acceleration over a given distance...
Guy running the dyno is wearing a suit. I love it.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by grandsport51 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:24 pm

Vic Edelbrock Jr.
LIGHT 'EM UP

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Bos's5.0 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:32 pm


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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Splitter » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:40 pm

Casper393W wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:31 pm
Geoff2 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:57 am
As far as a Cleveland humiliating a Chevy....

Folks should try & find a copy of the Feb 1969 PHR. That was right at the height of the muscle car era.
PHR staff obtained showroom cars with all the popular small blocks, pulled the box stock engines & dynoed them to see if they actually made their advertised HP.

The Ford 351 came last.

Only one engine reached it's advertised number, & actually made 20 hp more! The 340 Mopar made 295 hp, 275 hp adv

Here are the others, all made less than advertised.
Olds 350 280, 325
Pontiac 350 255, 325
Chev 350 240, 300
Ford 351 210, 290
I have that magazine at the house....

They compared the 351w not the Cleveland...
Ha! I was going to say, the Cleveland wasn’t available until 1970. That would be late 1969 build date. You could get the Windsor or the Cleveland in the 1970 Mustang.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Casper393W » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:00 pm

I also have another magazine Hot Rod '70
Ak Miller did a Dyno series called "Cleveland Put Ons"

Bone stock out of the crate the 4V Cleveland made 288 HP.

They tested different cams, intakes, and carbs...

Once done they made 398 HP with valve float and a single point distributor breaking up at 5800

I will post some pics from that article in the morning

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Geoff2 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:04 am

I used to regularly drag race against 351Cs in the 1970s. It was not uncommon to see a Cleveland going home on a flat bed....another one that dropped a valve. A common problem.

In circle track here in Oz, they kept blowing engines, until extensive modifications were done to the oiling system. I also saw other 'modifications' to improve them. Intake port floors Devconed because the ports were too large [ Ford Australia cast new heads, with smaller intake ports ]; also saw a 1" slab machined off the exh side of the heads & then fitted with a 1" alum piece to angle the exh port up because the stock port flowed poorly. Intake ports that were too large for street engines & a restrictive exh port, hardly an engineering masterpiece....

'Course you can buy aftermarket heads & other parts for all the popular engines, but are they really still a Chevy or a Ford? I saw a brand X build up the other day, touting big HP #s. About the only brand X parts on it were the oil pan bolts.....Everything else was aftermarket.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by novadude » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:05 am

I'd be interested in seeing which makes a better street engine. Put them in the same car, optimize tuning on both, and see which delivers the best fuel economy under controlled conditions. Which engine most efficiently utilizes a gallon of fuel in real world street driving.

Would be more time consuming and costly than a simple dyno test, but it sure would be interesting to see.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by plovett » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:54 pm

Casper393W wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:00 pm
I also have another magazine Hot Rod '70
Ak Miller did a Dyno series called "Cleveland Put Ons"

Bone stock out of the crate the 4V Cleveland made 288 HP.

They tested different cams, intakes, and carbs...

Once done they made 398 HP with valve float and a single point distributor breaking up at 5800

I will post some pics from that article in the morning
I'd like to see that article.

paulie

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by swampbuggy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:12 pm

Statsystems said------The guy (Mr. Clean) running the dyno has a coat and tie on-----I LOVE IT ! I laughed my A@# off !!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by tchapps88 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:28 pm

The results were Chevy- 422.9 ft lbs @4300 and 425.6 hp @ 5900, and the Ford- 427.7 ft lbs @ 4200 and 430.6 hp @ 6100.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Ron E » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:00 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see any 350 vs. 351W with parts this similar to come out this way. I think its the physics book overriding the name on the valve cover.

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