Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

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tchapps88
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Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by tchapps88 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:25 pm

Havent seen it talked on here yet but thought it was a pretty neat episode, its only on mtod at the moment as it came out a couple days ago.

They bought 2 stock component rebuilder short blocks, used afr 195 heads, rpm air gap intakes, xp750 carbs, similar 1-5/8 headers, 230/236 comp roller cams and had the ford one ground for less lift so they had identical total lift since the 351 is 1.6 ratio rockers.

The only thing they couldnt get the same was the 350 ended up with a 9.2 compression ratio and the 351 had 9.5 and they also talked about the advantage the 351 would have with its taller deck, longer rods, wider intake, split intake and exhaust ports, and thought all those things combined would give the ford a bigger advantage.

In the end the 351 did win by 5hp and 4 ft lb of torque which suprising shows how equal they really are in the aftermarket world. If the theory of between 7.0:1- 10.0:1 there is a 4% increase in hp for every one point holds up then based on that the ford had 1.2% advantage and and that is exactly how much more power it beat the chevy by.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by midnightbluS10 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:59 pm

Damn. I didn't expect it to be that close.


I got rid of MTOD a few months ago. Unfortunately, when you do that, you have to wait for like 2 months before there's anything new on YouTube. Especially since they don't release them on the same days on both mediums. So when the new stuff comes out on MTOD, it might be 2 weeks before the previous month's episode comes out on YouTube. After waiting that extra month to see it already.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Casper393W » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:57 pm

One thing I was surprised that they didn't bring up was the Windsors large 3" main bearings! While I know we can always find fault in other people's work...I really like that episode..

I wish they would have told how much timing each engine wound up having....

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by gmc406 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:20 pm

Just watched to for the first time recently on YouTube, I actually kinda like the show. I found myself binge watching, lol.

What were the actual numbers? I wish there was a way to post a graph overlay, but I know that would be difficult. It would be interesting to see the torque curves of both engines.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by peejay » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:42 pm

They're remarkably similar engines to begin with, so it is no surprise that if you feed them the same camshaft they will spit out the same power.

I could also uncharitably say that they are both pieces of junk and it's no surprise that they both flush the same amount of turds, but I'm not in that bad of a mood yet.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by houser45 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 pm

I wonder what the difference is between the two hanging from a scale?

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by superpursuit » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:32 pm

It seems that the SBC got an unfair advantage by putting a smaller cam in the 351W. A fair test would have been to have the same cam in both engines regardless of the difference in rocker ratio because they both had standard rocker ratio. SBC standard rocker ratio = 1.5:1. 351W standard rocker ratio = 1.6:1. To compare which engine made the better power, if both were built the same way, should have been just that. Not handicapping the engine that come from the factory with something that is a bit better.

As an example, let's say you were comparing the power difference between a SBC and a BBC with the same grind cam, same series head and so on. Would you limit the BBC with a smaller cam or anything just because it had a bigger rocker ratio, or more cubes, or anything? That would not be a fair comparison would it?

So to do a fair comparison between the 350 and the 351 you should have the same grind cam, same series heads, and so on. To retard the components on one engine does not give a fair comparison between the engines at all.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by MadBill » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:49 pm

I'd say that unless they chose to match up dead-stock engines, commonizing valve lift was a logical call for comparing potential, since 1.6 rockers are a no-cost substitution, given the near-inevitable use of roller rockers. (I'm surprised they didn't just do that..)
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by PackardV8 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:01 pm

I spent some years of my life in market research. When asked to do a project, I always asked, "Do we want to learn something we don't know, learn what people think, or manufacture some data we can use as a weapon?"

Those who did that dyno shootout wanted a draw which would keep both sides fighting/arguing. They had no interest in finding which would make the most horsepower for the same money.
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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by pdq67 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 am

superpursuit wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:32 pm
It seems that the SBC got an unfair advantage by putting a smaller cam in the 351W. A fair test would have been to have the same cam in both engines regardless of the difference in rocker ratio because they both had standard rocker ratio. SBC standard rocker ratio = 1.5:1. 351W standard rocker ratio = 1.6:1. To compare which engine made the better power, if both were built the same way, should have been just that. Not handicapping the engine that come from the factory with something that is a bit better.

As an example, let's say you were comparing the power difference between a SBC and a BBC with the same grind cam, same series head and so on. Would you limit the BBC with a smaller cam or anything just because it had a bigger rocker ratio, or more cubes, or anything? That would not be a fair comparison would it?

So to do a fair comparison between the 350 and the 351 you should have the same grind cam, same series heads, and so on. To retard the components on one engine does not give a fair comparison between the engines at all.
You mean compare a 396 BBC to a 396 B & S'd SBC?? Both built the same except for rocker ratios.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Bos's5.0 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 am

They have done a couple comparisons, within reason, and the best take away from those were that engines really are, for the most part, just air pumps no matter who's name is attached to them.

Everybody and their brother knows Chevys are cheaper to build when you get into aftermarket parts.

I find it interesting they never strap a 351 cleveland to the dyno for their comparison tests.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by englertracing » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:16 am

Bos's5.0 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 am
They have done a couple comparisons, within reason, and the best take away from those were that engines really are, for the most part, just air pumps no matter who's name is attached to them.

Everybody and their brother knows Chevys are cheaper to build when you get into aftermarket parts.

I find it interesting they never strap a 351 cleveland to the dyno for their comparison tests.
People who know, know that the Cleveland would humiliate the Chevy
People who don't know, have no idea that there is anything wrong with the pinch port.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by past midnight » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:56 am

Bos's5.0 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 am

Everybody and their brother knows Chevys are cheaper to build when you get into aftermarket parts.
This one kind off gets my goat.
One of my customers told me this in 2003 I proved it wrong then and that fact has not changed.
If you think this is true you need to find a new place to by your ford parts.
Yes I know there are companies out there that still hose the Ford guys big time. But there are those that won't!

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by past midnight » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 am

I have not seen the video yet so I don't know what they are really after.
But my thoughts are with same carb,
Same intake design and flow specs
Same head designs and flow specs
Same size and type of exhaust
Basically same compression
Same camshaft
Same cubic inch
Why would they not make about the same power!

If it's suppose to be a Ford/Chevy fight put a Ford cam in the Ford and see what happens.

And why not use the heads ability and put camshaft that make some actual power then we have a real fight . Well then again probly not much of a fight that way.

"taller deck, longer rods, wider intake, split intake and exhaust ports"
I can see a difference on a 30 lap circle track but
What difference does this make on a short dyno pull?
Last edited by past midnight on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

Post by Circlotron » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:38 am

Almost every single aftermarket engine part is, or at least claims to be, better than an OEM part. That being the case, they must be different to the OEM part. You can build an entire engine from aftermarket parts that are different from the originals. If not one of the parts is made by the OEM or is the same so that the entire engine is different, what basis do you have to call such an engine a Ford or a Chevy?

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