How many things do we do just because?

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rebelrouser
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How many things do we do just because?

Post by rebelrouser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:48 pm

Been a couple interesting threads recently about lobe centers, coatings, etc. I wonder how many things do we do when building an engine just because we always have done it that way, or because of something you read about, or a tip at the track, etc. 20 years ago. But if it came down to it, is their really any science or dyno results to prove it. Things like painting an engine black to dissipate heat better. Grinding lifter valleys for better oil return. I know when doing work on my personal race engine, for lack of time when porting heads, just rough them in, and then when I get time pull them off and really do a good job and they run just the same. Kind of like the thread on different oils, I usually run Valvoline VR1 just because I always have, and never had a trouble, but when I change, can't really say I have seen improvement in HP or longevity. Just wondering ?

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by englertracing » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:54 pm

I've considered it before,
How many of my fixations do nothing, how many are critical?

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by KnightEngines » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:48 pm

I got this thing, when I'm fitting oil rings I flex the ring, the direction that the ends of the ring deflects goes away from the expander. Read it in a BMW manual years ago.
Probably does nothing, but I can't seem to put oil rings on without doing it.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by hoodeng » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:42 pm

A lot of things we do are probably more to appease a visual aspect ,and for our work to look appealing to customers and our peers we finish to a standard that appeals to us as well.
Machining dags off internal castings ,matching mating non working edge surfaces , paint ,tidy work practices sell our work , does it make the engine go better? , probably not , does it make a customer want to come back to us in the future? ,,i hope so! ,,.

Mind you ,the myriad of choice of parts today is astounding! you can get the same part in three forms ,fabricated , cast and machine or billet, its up to you which way you go , is the job a work of art? does it need to be durable to the extreme? will it never see the light of day till the next overhaul?

With that, we have also seen massive improvements in the working parts we use , a high performance street engine built today has a service life engines built 40 years ago could only hope for.

On the oil ring rail installation ,you are right 100% , I think the original design of the three piece oil ring was called SU50 [don't quote me!] but the use of a central expander to separate and support two spring rails was the transformation of the oil ring assy. The rails were manufactured by a company called 'Cord ' the original intent of the ring was to use them in multiple packs instead of one piece rings ,compression or oil control ,their claim to fame was that they would work in any bore and also worked without the addition of combustion pressure to augment sealing , so they found a home in compressors etc where there is little dynamic loading on the ring pack . The method of assembly was to press the rail between the fingers 90°to the gap and whichever way the ring sprung was called the 'point' the ring was assembled with the points facing away from its partner ring ,so if the ring groove would take six rings on top of each other you ended up with three chevrons of contact point to the bore,they were also assembled with the gaps 180°to each other effectively making the whole assembly gapless.
When used in multiple packs they had a tendency to corrugate bores, in oil control this phenomena does not occur.
In my apprenticeship in the early 70's i would have installed thousands of these things in 'Gardner Denyer' compressors used in rail cars,they came in paper cylinders holding christ knows how many !


Cheers.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by KnightEngines » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:25 pm

On the oil ring rail installation ,you are right 100% , I think the original design of the three piece oil ring was called SU50 [don't quote me!] but the use of a central expander to separate and support two spring rails was the transformation of the oil ring assy. The rails were manufactured by a company called 'Cord ' the original intent of the ring was to use them in multiple packs instead of one piece rings ,compression or oil control ,their claim to fame was that they would work in any bore and also worked without the addition of combustion pressure to augment sealing , so they found a home in compressors etc where there is little dynamic loading on the ring pack . The method of assembly was to press the rail between the fingers 90°to the gap and whichever way the ring sprung was called the 'point' the ring was assembled with the points facing away from its partner ring ,so if the ring groove would take six rings on top of each other you ended up with three chevrons of contact point to the bore,they were also assembled with the gaps 180°to each other effectively making the whole assembly gapless.
When used in multiple packs they had a tendency to corrugate bores, in oil control this phenomena does not occur.
In my apprenticeship in the early 70's i would have installed thousands of these things in 'Gardner Denyer' compressors used in rail cars,they came in paper cylinders holding christ knows how many !
Wow, no shit, so it's not just some weird thing I 1/2 invented in my head LOL.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by PackardV8 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:56 pm

One guy I know can't install a head gasket without a can of aluminum spray paint.
Another guy I know won't use anything but Coppercoate.
The third guy won't put anything on his head gaskets.

And the first guy won't install core plugs without Indian Head gasket sealer.
The second guy will only install brass core plugs.
The third guy wants only Dorman

The first guy says "Loose is fast."
The second guy wants "a half-a-thou-more than the book"
The third guy spends an extra half hour getting his line hone in the exact middle of the spec.

They all build some good engines, but aren't sure about those other two guys.
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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by statsystems » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:57 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:56 pm
One guy I know can't install a head gasket without a can of aluminum spray paint.
Another guy I know won't use anything but Coppercoate.
The third guy won't put anything on his head gaskets.

And the first guy won't install core plugs without Indian Head gasket sealer.
The second guy will only install brass core plugs.
The third guy wants only Dorman

The first guy says "Loose is fast."
The second guy wants "a half-a-thou-more than the book"
The third guy spends an extra half hour getting his line hone in the exact middle of the spec.

They all build some good engines, but aren't sure about those other two guys.



CLASSIC! Engine builders are like a fart in a skillet. And superstitious.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by MadBill » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:59 pm

And it's a rare bird that has a kind word for anyone else's work...
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by grant6395 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:44 pm

KnightEngines wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:48 pm
I got this thing, when I'm fitting oil rings I flex the ring, the direction that the ends of the ring deflects goes away from the expander. Read it in a BMW manual years ago.
Probably does nothing, but I can't seem to put oil rings on without doing it.
That's funny. I do that too. Got told that years ago. Don't know if there's much to it, but haven't seen any issues by doing it this way.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by Casper393W » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:18 pm

Fart in a Skillet.....love that....

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by modok » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:25 pm

One time I was installing a crank into an engine with the new guy (he was a short lived new guy), and he goes to spin the crank and I said "no, don't spin the crank until all the caps are on and bolts snugged", and he says "oh, ok, why"
and I thought about it......and.....didn't really remember why, so I said..."I don't remember"

There are multiple reasons why, but could not think if any of them at that moment. He was baffled.
He was highly suspicious that I was off my rocker before, but this confirmed it #-o
But you know what.....90% of what you do is not conscious, it's habit. It's good to think about everything you do, but if you had to consciously think about every little thing.....life would be HARD.

A buddy -showed me- how to run a sub arc welder, several times, he tried to explain well, but it wasn't working.
I had to watch him do it for awhile and realize he was listening to the sound of the wire feed motor to adjust the wire feed speed.
He did not know he was doing that, it was unconscious. Since he was unaware of it, no wonder he didn't mention it.
Glen Urban

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by peejay » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:50 pm

statsystems wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:57 pm
PackardV8 wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:56 pm
One guy I know can't install a head gasket without a can of aluminum spray paint.
Another guy I know won't use anything but Coppercoate.
The third guy won't put anything on his head gaskets.

And the first guy won't install core plugs without Indian Head gasket sealer.
The second guy will only install brass core plugs.
The third guy wants only Dorman

The first guy says "Loose is fast."
The second guy wants "a half-a-thou-more than the book"
The third guy spends an extra half hour getting his line hone in the exact middle of the spec.

They all build some good engines, but aren't sure about those other two guys.



CLASSIC! Engine builders are like a fart in a skillet. And superstitious.
I am not supersitious, but I refuse to say anything positive about a car or engine until after it has been picked up.

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by dfarr67 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:14 pm

One guy I know can't install a head gasket without a can of aluminum spray paint.
Another guy I know won't use anything but Coppercoate.
The third guy won't put anything on his head gaskets.


How does the Copperkote perform- I want to try it out 'just because' but when the moment arrives- I chicken out and use nothing??

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by FC-Pilot » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:35 pm

dfarr67 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:14 pm
One guy I know can't install a head gasket without a can of aluminum spray paint.
Another guy I know won't use anything but Coppercoate.
The third guy won't put anything on his head gaskets.


How does the Copperkote perform- I want to try it out 'just because' but when the moment arrives- I chicken out and use nothing??
I have used it quite a bit over the last few decades. For a stocker or mild performance engine that will go in a car and stay there for 10 years I use it on basic felpro gaskets. I picked this habit up from my dad. never had an issue, so why change my routine. For fresh water marine engines with scooped pickups I use a light layer on each layer of the MLS gaskets as we have seen water pressure in the block measured at 100 psi. I was impressed the intake gaskets did not blow out. Knowing how much pressure there can be I don't want anything able to weep through.

That is my big thing I do "just because". It can be a pain to get all cleaned off.

Paul
"It's a fine line between clever and stupid." David St. Hubbins

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Re: How many things do we do just because?

Post by dfarr67 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:30 pm

Sorry for the little hyjack...

I can't use MLS due to block finish, builder used FelPro 1044 (.051 X 4.200)on a 040 SBC, I've selected the GMPP 12557236 (.051 X 4.100) to replace due to some work I need to do, traditional graphite gasket with alum head.

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