What Have You Learned from Tech?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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GARY C
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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by GARY C » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:25 pm

andyf wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:19 pm
340king wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:10 am
Years ago it became obvious that virtually all automotive magazines and T.V. shows were merely product placement vehicles designed to sell a certain product. The one exception appeared to be Super Stock and Drag Illustrated. Their articles at least appeared to be more about tech than product placement. Mr. Vizard's articles were part of that mix. Sadly, that lack of product placement may have led to the magazine's disappearance.

Some of the older snowmobile mags had some good tech in them, but they also soon became product placement publications also.

Here is an article that I just wrote for Car Craft: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tes ... -fe-heads/

Is it product placement? Perhaps. I'm reviewing the new Trick Flow FE heads as well as the FAST EFI system and FAST ignition system. I also show people the SCAT rotating assembly (very nice parts BTW), and the Aviaid pan, the cool tunnel wedge intake from BBM, etc. But it isn't really a "product placement" article since it is a real engine that is owned by a guy who is going to bolt it into his '63 1/2 Galaxie. I consider it more of a story than a product placement ad. If you want to know about these parts before you spend your own money then an article like this seems like it would be helpful.

I've had a few FE guys say the dyno numbers are happy but none of them worked on the engine or were at the facility when we did the testing so I'm not sure how they know anything. We deadweighted the dyno and typed in the weather conditions. So if following the mfg instructions on how to run the dyno makes it happy then perhaps it is a happy dyno. I'm always curious how guys who didn't turn a wrench on the engine seem to know what the power should be. Guess they are just smarter than everyone else?

I write 5 or 6 magazine articles a year and I learn new stuff on every article I write. This was my first dual throttle body EFI project so that was a learning experience.
Thanks for posting that, I never had an issue with product placement as long as the test was not fudged.

I know a few people in the industry so I understand the tech writer is also having to deal with a company that has to make a living to keep bringing people publications.

It's good that tech writers are willing to come on here and share what they are doing.

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Dave Koehler
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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by Dave Koehler » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:54 pm

andyf wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:19 pm
I'm always curious how guys who didn't turn a wrench on the engine seem to know what the power should be. Guess they are just smarter than everyone else?
I will have to read that one Andy. No judgement.

I suspect that curious question gets silently asked from quite a few of us here.
I get irked when someone says such and such part or machine is crap without first hand backup information as to why.
It is usually obvious when they are regurgitating 3rd hand from Cousin Bubba's girl friend's Uncle.

I haven't had a subscription in quite a while except for Engine Pro, Racetech and a couple of other industry mags.
Most of the car mags we grew up with follow a pattern and after a while they all seem to be a vicious circle of rewrites. Same stuff, different name and date.
Old age and DejaVu if you will

Agree that the internet is great. I used to have file cabinets full of notes.
All transcribed to the computer now.
At least the ones that haven't become outdated.
Catalogs are all PDFs these days. Love that.

I am lousy with wood but youtube held my hand through some house upgrades.
I still hate wood but I did get to buy more Dewalt tools.

When I got my first CNC machine I thought I knew what I was getting into. Nope.
Thought I knew machining but CNC is a different world.
Like everything else I had to learn on my own I just had to make expensive mistakes on my own stuff until it fell into place.
Some good youtube guys out there willing to show and tell. Just gotta dig for it.
Actually I might not have made the jump without first looking through youtube for the possibilities.

Speedtalk: Some of the in depth tech is still good for a mind trip. It was better a few years ago. Times change. Participants change.

All the above: Just have to soak it in, weed through it and use/try what is logical.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by andyf » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:46 pm

Here is another article that I finished recently: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tes ... ake-power/

This is a 470 inch big block Mopar that I've been working on for a couple of years. I've run 100+ dyno tests and have improved the peak power from 680 to 775 hp. I've tried 4 different cams, 5 intakes, 4 carbs, different oiling systems (dry sump, wet sump, belt drive external pump, etc.) and I've run it with and without a vacuum pump. Is it product placement or R&D? I think it is R&D and I'm just telling people what happened but some folks might call it product placement because I post nice pictures of the parts that I use. But I have to buy most of the parts with my own money so it isn't really advertising. Sometimes a vendor will give me a discount on a part but mostly I pay retail price at Summit for parts.
Andy F.
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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by In-Tech » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:02 am

Haha, there's no such thing as "retail" price "at Summit". But I feel ya Andy, I did some top end stuff for a company over a year ago and out of my pocket. They did pay the dyno guy so I am not sure whether to give away my findings or frolic so they could sue me down the road. :lol:
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by barnym17 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:05 am

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:14 pm
I learned more from experimenting with 1D software like Eng Mod 4T and Dynomation than everything I have read combined.

Coding a cam design software developed a lot of understanding.

Designing castings and foundry tooling in CAD is a game changer when it comes to understanding and engine and all the compromises involved. It makes the arguments about Ford vs Chevy and who copied who seem idiotic.

Working for OEMs helped me understand why they make the decisions they do, and makes the comments that mechanics make about "stupid engineers" sound ignorant.

Working at Honda HPD taught me that about a long list of the things people worry about when they build engines are unimportant or counterproductive to winning races by putting effort into the wrong priorities.
I know oem has tough choices to make but man when you work on the stuff daily you really learn to dislike engineers. A Ford e series with a 6.0 is a nightmare it's like they had a contest to see who can put the most failure prone engine in the tightest spot possible.

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by 427dart » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:06 am

I read all the tech and tune articles in Super/Stock...Car Craft and Cars magazine back during the 60's and early 70's. to get a basic understanding.
Then learned from my own engine building over the years what worked best for my uses.

Now this forum is a great place to learn what is going on with new parts technology and new and old ideas plus maybe finding an answer to old questions I've had for years from some of the tuners and builders with more expierence!

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by rfoll » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:21 am

I've had a subscription to HR since the late 60s. Back when I knew nothing about car stuff, there was plenty to be learned. 20 or 30 years later I was foolish enough to take some of the information seriously and paid a good price. The mis-information can be expensive. The tech articles where someone writes in about a problem tend to be informative. The tech editor will actually take the time to do the research and give intelligent responses and suggestions. Beyond that it's mostly just pictures and advertisement. In a recent CC article, they went on about finding a 6.0 LS for $500, then they spent $3500 to get it running. Yet, the magazines have readers convinced that those engines are the shortcut to cheap horsepower.
So much to do, so little time...

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by hoffman900 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:36 pm

barnym17 wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:05 am
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:14 pm
I learned more from experimenting with 1D software like Eng Mod 4T and Dynomation than everything I have read combined.

Coding a cam design software developed a lot of understanding.

Designing castings and foundry tooling in CAD is a game changer when it comes to understanding and engine and all the compromises involved. It makes the arguments about Ford vs Chevy and who copied who seem idiotic.

Working for OEMs helped me understand why they make the decisions they do, and makes the comments that mechanics make about "stupid engineers" sound ignorant.

Working at Honda HPD taught me that about a long list of the things people worry about when they build engines are unimportant or counterproductive to winning races by putting effort into the wrong priorities.
I know oem has tough choices to make but man when you work on the stuff daily you really learn to dislike engineers. A Ford e series with a 6.0 is a nightmare it's like they had a contest to see who can put the most failure prone engine in the tightest spot possible.
Working on multi-disciplinary teams has taught me one of the most important attributes for success is humbleness.

A single engineer needs to realize he doesn’t know everything, and needs to rely on a team of engineers, technicians, and the end user for input and be receptive of it. There is nothing worst than an insecure engineer who starts off or ends the argument with “...well I’m and engineer...”

A mechanic needs to realize just because one can bolt together an object, doesn’t mean they know how to design it. Torquing a nut down on a stud tells you nothing why the stud needs the strength it needs, why the torque needs to be a certain value, etc. That said, they sometimes see things in the field that the engineer may not. I don’t think a guy like Dr. Andrew Randolph or the late Keith Duckworth has/had assembled many engines (I could be wrong!), but you would be a doofus to not listen to him or anything written by or about Keith based on that.

Everyone really just needs to listen to each other. Good team leaders help with that. Unfortunately, most people are so far up their own butts (either as an individual or a collective “us vs. them”) that stuff doesn’t get done as effective as it should.
-Bob

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by hoffman900 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:47 pm

midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:37 am
hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:46 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:37 pm


I have learned about more tech HERE in 5 years than I retained from 50 years of the combined reading of all the magazines in my past.
Although, there is a lot of crap here, too.
+1

I have particularly enjoyed posts by (in no order) Darin Morgan, Larry Meaux, Calvin Elston, Mike Jones, Harold Brookshire, Neels Vannik, Clint Grey, Jon Schmidt, Bill Jones, and many more. I find the camshaft topics most interesting and we were lucky to have the discussions we did with guys like Harold while they were around. I started at this site in 2005 while in high school - I'm lucky in that regard.

Holy crap. I never imagined you were younger than I. Wow! That just makes me have that much more respect for you. I graduated in 1999. Started big in forums around 1997 as a sophomore in high school when I had my first S10. I didn't really participate until around 2001 when I registered at the GMC Syclone & Typhoon forum, syty.net, and s-series.org, the original S10 forum.
I just try to read everything I can get my hands on and if I can, go right to the source. I’ve had lots of good discussions with experts outside the public domain of the forum. I’m not trained for tha automotive world, but there is a lot of crossover in how to think. There is something to be said for the scientific method and using it as a way of thinking / seeing the world. It also requires deep skepticism as well.
-Bob

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340king

Post by 340king » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:20 pm

andyf wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:19 pm
340king wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:10 am
Years ago it became obvious that virtually all automotive magazines and T.V. shows were merely product placement vehicles designed to sell a certain product. The one exception appeared to be Super Stock and Drag Illustrated. Their articles at least appeared to be more about tech than product placement. Mr. Vizard's articles were part of that mix. Sadly, that lack of product placement may have led to the magazine's disappearance.

Some of the older snowmobile mags had some good tech in them, but they also soon became product placement publications also.

Here is an article that I just wrote for Car Craft: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tes ... -fe-heads/

Is it product placement? Perhaps. I'm reviewing the new Trick Flow FE heads as well as the FAST EFI system and FAST ignition system. I also show people the SCAT rotating assembly (very nice parts BTW), and the Aviaid pan, the cool tunnel wedge intake from BBM, etc. But it isn't really a "product placement" article since it is a real engine that is owned by a guy who is going to bolt it into his '63 1/2 Galaxie. I consider it more of a story than a product placement ad. If you want to know about these parts before you spend your own money then an article like this seems like it would be helpful.

I've had a few FE guys say the dyno numbers are happy but none of them worked on the engine or were at the facility when we did the testing so I'm not sure how they know anything. We deadweighted the dyno and typed in the weather conditions. So if following the mfg instructions on how to run the dyno makes it happy then perhaps it is a happy dyno. I'm always curious how guys who didn't turn a wrench on the engine seem to know what the power should be. Guess they are just smarter than everyone else?

I write 5 or 6 magazine articles a year and I learn new stuff on every article I write. This was my first dual throttle body EFI project so that was a learning experience.
As I said virtually all, not all. I am glad that you are breaking the mold. It is important for the industry, especially when working on a non-belly button FE.

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by Zmechanic » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:19 am

barnym17 wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:05 am
I know oem has tough choices to make but man when you work on the stuff daily you really learn to dislike engineers. A Ford e series with a 6.0 is a nightmare it's like they had a contest to see who can put the most failure prone engine in the tightest spot possible.
I totally get why this type of sentiment comes about. It's from frustration. But understand it wasn't done "just because". Everybody has their set of pressures and motivations. The engineers have theirs too, and are likely being held to certain constraints. What comes out is a product with a set of compromises in ways everyone involved with the design believes will be the most successful. In other words, sell the most without sacrificing quality to an unacceptable level.

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by Circlotron » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:49 am

^^^ In other words, the least worst solution.

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by hoodeng » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:45 am

Having started my time in the railways in 71 there was a general opinion that engineers were not as good as they were cracked up to be, and that the sharper tradesmen were at times better at calling a shot,, as time went on and the opportunities to work more closely with them became more frequent, an uneasy feeling about my earlier opinion of them crept in ,,,they were actually pretty good!! a few directed me towards some pretty interesting reading material that i have kept to this day.
RET is the main read for me as i am more engine orientated than anything else , i did subscribe to Racecar Engineering for a number of years ,great mag , but not where my main interest lie.
I have included a shot of my first 'Hot Rod Magazine' , Jan 65 ,one article was titled "Ford's 90 Day Wonder" the story of Ford's 427 cammer development .
There is also a shot of my library , anything piston aircraft, engine development ,fault analyses/diagnosis , engineering etc .

Lastly the book titled "The unwritten laws of engineering" by King ,first written in 1944 for the 'American society of mechanical engineers' This gem is about how a fresh engineer should behave when first working in a group environment in the war effort .Still relevant today in my eyes.

A wake up moment for me about kids was many years ago, my daughter who at the time was riding a Suzuki to school and part time work daily , and had not expressed any interest in the bikes i rode at all ...I'm inside the house watching TV and i hear my Triumph Hurricane fire up in the front shed !!!!! I'm thinking ,,Thief!! and run like hell ,only to find daughter #1 has it all fired up and ready to ride out the door .... Apparently ,if you can start it you can ride it ,,Does that sound OK?

Cheers.
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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by GLHS60 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:56 am

Reminds me of Smokeys explanation of why Ford Engines have the oil pan on backwards !!

Thanks
Randy

Zmechanic wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:19 am
barnym17 wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:05 am
le.
I totally get why this type of sentiment comes about. It's from frustration. But understand it wasn't done "just because". Everybody has their set of pressures and motivations. The engineers have theirs too, and are likely being held to certain constraints. What comes out is a product with a set of compromises in ways everyone involved with the design believes will be the most successful. In other words, sell the most without sacrificing quality to an unacceptable level.
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

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Re: What Have You Learned from Tech?

Post by barnym17 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am

Oh I understand what you are saying, it's just when you deal with issues all the time such as wiring harness chaffing which on these particular vehicles was a known issue after about the first year of production,one would think they could resolve it.Instead they tell you where it is going to happen tell you to cut open and repair a harness that is barely long enough as it is. Or tell you to reroute after the repair to avoid the issue, you would think if they knew it needed rerouted slightly after years of production they would do it in the first place.

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