Frictional Losses

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Stan Weiss
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Frictional Losses

Post by Stan Weiss »

hoffman900 wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:01 pm Jay,

Is this a little closer to what you've seen?

Image
No wanting to take this other thread off topic.

It looks like all of the Frictional Losses if not linear are very close to linear except rod journals. What is everyone's thinking here. I know many loads go up with velocity squared, but this does not seem to be the case with the mains.

Stan
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by maxracesoftware »

Not wanting to take this other thread off topic.

It looks like all of the Frictional Losses if not linear are very close to linear except rod journals.
What is everyone's thinking here.
I know many loads go up with velocity squared, but this does not seem to be the case with the mains.

Stan
i'm not squaring anything
in a short .EXE Program i wrote off that YouTube video
using the various values shown

but i had to tweak each Loss amount a little different from that Video
until i found all the correct values that correlate with majority of my Dyno Data ,
... so now all are set or fixed , so that these same fixed values work pretty well over a variety of Engines

it seems to be within 90+ % accuracy , even modeling a Dual-Plane

with just these simple inputs :
;----- NHRA Stocker 337.94732199 Cubic Inches at 5900 RPM
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 105
VE_Loss = 14 <<--- accounts for Flow restriction from 100% divided Plenum with just 0.250" thick QJet gasket
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.060
Stroke = 3.263
CR = 11.3

actual Dyno test :
DTS Dyno 348 RPM/SEC Rate
Peak TQ= 423.0 @ 4000
Peak HP= 420.4 @ 5900

Modeled results :
RPM = 5900 PistonFPM = 3208.6167 HP = 401.8 TotalLoss = 365.6 FuelLbsHour = 179.7

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

inputs :
;----- SS/IA
WeatherHPCF = 1.0855127
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 103.5
VE_Loss = 6
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.065
Stroke = 3.493
CR = 11.459

real Dyno = 575.0 Peak HP
modeled HP = 557.8
RPM = 7200 PistonFPM = 4191.6000 HP = 557.8 TotalLoss = 507.5 FuelLbsHour = 248.5

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- ProStock 500cid
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 124.665
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.750
Stroke = 3.520
CR = 15.5

RPM = 10100 PistonFPM = 5925.3333 HP = 1500.4 TotalLoss = 1365.2 FuelLbsHour = 622.3
RPM = 10200 PistonFPM = 5984.0000 HP = 1515.3 TotalLoss = 1378.7 FuelLbsHour = 628.4
RPM = 10300 PistonFPM = 6042.6667 HP = 1530.1 TotalLoss = 1392.2 FuelLbsHour = 634.6
RPM = 10400 PistonFPM = 6101.3333 HP = 1545.0 TotalLoss = 1405.8 FuelLbsHour = 640.8
RPM = 10500 PistonFPM = 6160.0000 HP = 1559.8 TotalLoss = 1419.3 FuelLbsHour = 646.9

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

;----- Sonny's 1006cid 8000 RPM 2150 HP 1550 TQ
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 110
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 5.220
Stroke = 5.875
CR = 16.000

RPM = 7900 PistonFPM = 7735.4167 HP = 2101.6 TotalLoss = 1912.2 FuelLbsHour = 865.7
RPM = 8000 PistonFPM = 7833.3333 HP = 2128.2 TotalLoss = 1936.4 FuelLbsHour = 876.6
RPM = 8100 PistonFPM = 7931.2500 HP = 2154.8 TotalLoss = 1960.6 FuelLbsHour = 887.6

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

;----- Briggs 6 HP Raptor Jr Dragster
;----- PeakTQ = 7.7 Peak HP = 6.0 @ 4500 RPM
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 77
VE_Loss = 3
AFRatio = 13.2
Cylinders = 1
Bore = 2.562
Stroke = 2.438
CR = 6.5

RPM = 4500 PistonFPM = 1828.5000 HP = 7.4 TotalLoss = 6.7 FuelLbsHour = 3.9

remarkable accuracy for just only 8 inputs 8)
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by maxracesoftware »

;----- NASCAR video
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 129.00000
VE_Loss = 7
AFRatio = 12.8
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.18000
Stroke = 3.26000
CR = 12

RPM = 8800 PistonFPM = 4781.3333 HP = 843.9 TotalLoss = 767.8 FuelLbsHour = 371.6
RPM = 8900 PistonFPM = 4835.6667 HP = 853.5 TotalLoss = 776.6 FuelLbsHour = 375.8
RPM = 9000 PistonFPM = 4890.0000 HP = 863.1 TotalLoss = 785.3 FuelLbsHour = 380.1
RPM = 9100 PistonFPM = 4944.3333 HP = 872.7 TotalLoss = 794.0 FuelLbsHour = 384.3

===============================================================================================

;----- Martino V6 D/ED Class 1994-1995
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 110
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 6
Bore = 4.125
Stroke = 3.37500
CR = 15.0

actual Dyno Peak HP = 614.0 at 8700 to 8900 RPM
RPM = 8600 PistonFPM = 4837.5000 HP = 607.0 TotalLoss = 552.3 FuelLbsHour = 253.5
RPM = 8700 PistonFPM = 4893.7500 HP = 614.0 TotalLoss = 558.7 FuelLbsHour = 256.5
RPM = 8800 PistonFPM = 4950.0000 HP = 621.1 TotalLoss = 565.1 FuelLbsHour = 259.4
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by maxracesoftware »

pretty good surprise
that the NASCAR 101 Video's values also work well for a TurboCharged Diesel
even though HP Correction Factor for TurboCharged Diesel are different than Gasoline + N.A. engines

could tweak the coefficient HP loss values a little more
but accuracy is very close without any changes to original coefficients

;----- TurboCharged Diesel Duramax_Diesel_6.6L_V8_L5P_Turbo_Diesel__2800RPM_445HP_1600RPM_910TQ.PMW
WeatherHPCF = 1.07
UserHPCF = 1 / WeatherHPCF
Head_VE = 260 ;<<--- i used 23.52 Psi Boost , but maybe more like 20.0 Psi ??
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 20 ;<<--- maybe more like 22:1 ??
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.05510
Stroke = 3.89760
CR = 16

results 440.6 Peak HP -vs- real 445 HP @ 2800 RPM
RPM = 2700 PistonFPM = 1753.9200 HP = 424.8 TotalLoss = 386.5 FuelLbsHour = 175.0
RPM = 2800 PistonFPM = 1818.8800 HP = 440.6 TotalLoss = 400.9 FuelLbsHour = 181.5
RPM = 2900 PistonFPM = 1883.8400 HP = 456.3 TotalLoss = 415.2 FuelLbsHour = 187.9
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by hoffman900 »

Larry, how does this compare with the loss from the Honda paper you have used previously?
-Bob
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by maxracesoftware »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 pm Larry, how does this compare with the loss from the Honda paper you have used previously?
Bob , do you mean this SAE Paper 900223
http://papers.sae.org/900223/

many years ago , i received a letter from Neil Williams saying SF was looking into incorporating the FHP and FTQ equations
in that SAE900223 into future WinDyn,
but if you carefully look at those equations
there are some math mistakes

as far as i know, SuperFlow did not use those equations to this day .... maybe because of errors in that Paper ???

there's also 1 SuperFlow error in their SF901 SF902 N.A. Lookup Table at only 1 certain Piston Speed FPM
i corrected that in PipeMax versions long time ago
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by hoffman900 »

maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:21 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:57 pm Larry, how does this compare with the loss from the Honda paper you have used previously?
Bob , do you mean this SAE Paper 900223
http://papers.sae.org/900223/

many years ago , i received a letter from Neil Williams saying SF was looking into incorporating the FHP and FTQ equations
in that SAE900223 into future WinDyn,
but if you carefully look at those equations
there are some math mistakes

as far as i know, SuperFlow did not use those equations to this day .... maybe because of errors in that Paper ???

there's also 1 SuperFlow error in their SF901 SF902 N.A. Lookup Table at only 1 certain Piston Speed FPM
i corrected that in PipeMax versions long time ago
That's the one. I've never read it but I have seen it referenced in several places.
-Bob
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by Pro-SeriesFab »

That UNC Charlotte video is well worth the 46min . . . glad it hasn't been taken down.

Guess I need to download it.

is dr randolph on here?
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by maxracesoftware »

NASCAR 101 Video Equations = ( FREE .EXE Program )

( no installation required .... for WIN-XP to WIN-10 versions )
i created this very tiny portable stand-alone .EXE Program ( 49.0 KB file size )
from all the equations from that NASCAR 101 ECR Video

NASCAR 101 ECR YouTube Video Link :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZCnG1HwDM

with just a few Inputs
there's pretty good correlation !

FREE download Link :
http://www.mediafire.com/file/7xxc4l866 ... ations.exe

here are examples to test
and tryout your various Engine Combinations are see how well or not so well it correlates ?

its just a very simple FREE program , enjoy :)


;----- NASCAR video 358cid 863.0 Peak HP to 880.0 Peak HP range
Head_VE = 118
VE_Loss = 6.5 ;<<--- Ported Manifold but only an 850 CFM Carb Rule
AFRatio = 12.5 ;<<--- sometimes 12.8 to 13.2 AFRatio at Peak HP RPM
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.18000
Stroke = 3.26000
CR = 12

;----- results
HP = 880.3
Peak Torque = 562.1
Cubic inches = 357.890386
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 1327.8 ;<<---wants more CFM than a 850 CFM Legal Carb
BSFC = 0.4323 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- NHRA SS/IA
Head_VE = 98.6
VE_Loss = 6 ;<<--- Ported Edelbrock Victor E w/QJet 780 CFM Carb
AFRatio = 12.5 ;<<--- sometimes 12.8 to 13.2 AFRatio at Peak HP RPM
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.065
Stroke = 3.493
CR = 11.459
RPM = 7200

;----- results
HP = 585.7
Peak Torque = 467.5
Cubic inches = 362.659914
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 942.6
BSFC = 0.4375 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- Sonny's 1006cid 8000 RPM 2150 HP 1550 TQ
Head_VE = 102
VE_Loss = 0 ;<<--- Sheet Metal Manifold w/ EFI so no real VE % Loss
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 5.220
Stroke = 5.875
CR = 16.000
RPM = 8000

;----- results
HP = 2150.8
Peak Torque = 1545.2
Cubic inches = 1005.839636
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 3117.1
BSFC = 0.4044 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- Chrysler NHRA SS 371cid 561HP 475TQ 850 CFM ThermoQuad
Head_VE = 101.3
VE_Loss = 6
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.065
Stroke = 3.580
CR = 9.459
RPM = 6900

;----- results
HP = 561.6
Peak Torque = 467.7
Cubic inches = 371.692668
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 963.5
BSFC = 0.4612 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- NHRA Stocker Chevy SBC 337.94732199 Cubic Inches at 5900 RPM
;----- DTS Dyno at 348 RPM/SEC Peak TQ= 423.0 @ 4000 Peak HP= 420.4 @ 5900
Head_VE = 102
VE_Loss = 14 ;<<--- accounts for Flow restriction from 100% divided Plenum With just 0.250" thick QJet gasket
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.060
Stroke = 3.263
CR = 11.3
RPM = 5900

;----- results
HP = 424.5
Peak Torque = 413.5
Cubic inches = 354.860224
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 724.5
BSFC = 0.4391 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- ProStock 500cid
Head_VE = 115
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.750
Stroke = 3.520
CR = 15.5
RPM = 10500

;----- results
HP = 1568.2
Peak Torque = 858.4
Cubic inches = 499.010577
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 2158.6
BSFC = 0.4072 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- V6 D/ED Class 1994-1995 614 Peak HP @ 8800 RPM 400+ Peak TQ
Head_VE = 100
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 6
Bore = 4.125
Stroke = 3.37500
CR = 15.0

;----- results
HP = 615.4
Peak Torque = 401.9
Cubic inches = 270.621823
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 884.8
BSFC = 0.4101 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- Briggs 6 HP Raptor Jr Dragster
;----- PeakTQ = 7.7 Peak HP = 6.0 @ 4500 RPM
Head_VE = 77
VE_Loss = 22
AFRatio = 13.2
Cylinders = 1
Bore = 2.562
Stroke = 2.438
CR = 6.5
RPM 4500

;----- results
HP = 6.0
Peak Torque = 7.6
Cubic inches = 12.568453
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 14.0
BSFC = 0.5226 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


;----- TurboCharged Diesel Duramax_Diesel_6.6L_V8_L5P_Turbo_Diesel__2800RPM_445HP_1600RPM_910TQ.PMW
Head_VE = 241 ;<<--- 20.727 Psi Boost
VE_Loss = 0
AFRatio = 20
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.05510
Stroke = 3.89760
CR = 16

;----- results
HP = 445.1
Peak Torque = 913.5
Cubic inches = 402.698741
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 1488.3
BSFC = 0.4044 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


; ;----- Bob_Book_Aussie_Pro_Stock_400ci_SBC_10000RPM_1230HP_678TQ.PMW
; Head_VE = 112
; VE_Loss = 0
; AFRatio = 11.9 ;<<--- Note : oxygenated Race Fuel allowed
; Cylinders = 8
; Bore = 4.20000
; Stroke = 3.60000
; CR = 16
RPM = 10000

;----- results
HP = 1230.1
Peak Torque = 707.0
Cubic inches = 399.007400
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 1616.3
BSFC = 0.4044 @ Peak HP RPM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


; ; ;----- CompCams_XR252HR110_SBC357cid_4600RPM_311HP_3600RPM_407TQ.PMW
; ; ; Camshaft 12-407-8 Grind XR252HR-10
; ; ; 252/258 Durations @ 0.006"
; ; ; 200/206 Durations @ 0.050"
; ; ; 0.472" / 0.480" Lifts
; ; ; 4.040x3.480
; ; ; Dart S/R Heads
; ; ; Edelbrock Performer Dual-Plane Intake Manifold
; ; ; Holley 3310 Vac Sec 750 CFM Carb
; ; ; 1 5/8ths Headers
; ; ; 9.25:1 CR
; ; ; 19.0" Hg Vacuum @ 800 RPM no load
; ; ; 20.0" Hg Vacuum @ 1000 RPM no load
; ;
Head_VE = 97
VE_Loss = 14 ;<<--- accounts for Flow restriction from Dual-Plane Manifold w/Slot + Holley 3310 Vacuum Sec 750 CFM Carb
AFRatio = 12.5
Cylinders = 8
Bore = 4.040
Stroke = 3.480
CR = 9.250
RPM = 4600

;----- results
HP = 311.0
Peak Torque = 388.6
Cubic inches = 356.879698
Carb CFM @ 1.5 inHg = 608.5
BSFC = 0.4643 @ Peak HP RPM
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by Stef »

Awesome work Larry! :D
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Re: Frictional Losses

Post by maxracesoftware »

Stef wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:54 pm Awesome work Larry! :D
Stef, thanks a bunch , and i hope the Program is useful for you

here's 1 more final example
very close correlation
almost identical BSFC numbers , and Peak TQ is within a few Lbs

if you apply the HP Corr Factor = (1 / 1.091168826) to 503.1 Fuel Lbs = 461.1 you get almost same as his 463.2 Lbs Fuel @ 9400

and it might be making 760+ Peak TQ below 8500 or so


Chris_Uratchko_466cid__CU_Marcella_SB_Chevy_ROX_1244_HP_500CFM
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