ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by swampbuggy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:53 pm

come on guys lets talk about engines NOT argue, Mark [-o<

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by mekilljoydammit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:33 am

The thing that gets me is how reliable these things are now. Back in the old (80s/90s) IMSA / GrC days most of the combinations, especially the production based ones, had to really play the engine life management game - hell, Jaguar for example ran their old V12s at the 24 hour races because they didn't think the turbo V6s would last - and even then, from a book about Mazda's win in '91, Mazda was able to push the Jaguar V12 cars to a pace where they wouldn't last. And the pushrod V8s, even with all of the rules breaks here and there to try to prop them up, never seemed to be anywhere near reliable enough.

Now one of the combinations that's the benchmark for reliability and pace is based off the production GM V8, and from interviews here and there, running the whole thing as a 24 hour sprint race is a viable strategy. And with an 0.7mm top ring apparently? The varying trumpet height I thought was interesting as well, along with details of the oiling.

As for the homologation side... ugh, well, at least IMSA is allowing non-spec powertrain and bodywork options unlike ACO/FIA's latest brainstorm.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by pamotorman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:00 pm

mekilljoydammit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:33 am
The thing that gets me is how reliable these things are now. Back in the old (80s/90s) IMSA / GrC days most of the combinations, especially the production based ones, had to really play the engine life management game - hell, Jaguar for example ran their old V12s at the 24 hour races because they didn't think the turbo V6s would last - and even then, from a book about Mazda's win in '91, Mazda was able to push the Jaguar V12 cars to a pace where they wouldn't last. And the pushrod V8s, even with all of the rules breaks here and there to try to prop them up, never seemed to be anywhere near reliable enough.

Now one of the combinations that's the benchmark for reliability and pace is based off the production GM V8, and from interviews here and there, running the whole thing as a 24 hour sprint race is a viable strategy. And with an 0.7mm top ring apparently? The varying trumpet height I thought was interesting as well, along with details of the oiling.

As for the homologation side... ugh, well, at least IMSA is allowing non-spec powertrain and bodywork options unlike ACO/FIA's latest brainstorm.
i would guess the improvement in materials is a big reason for this. with the OEM warranty now for years the production parts are now much better in material and build.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by CamKing » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:04 pm

mekilljoydammit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:33 am
The thing that gets me is how reliable these things are now.
Well, when the rules allow you to take a 700hp engine, and detune it to a 600hp dyno mule. It's going to be very reliable.
When I made the cams for the Porsche V8, that won the 2010 24 hours of Daytona. We were limited to 550hp. The production Turbo version of that engine made about 600hp, and came with a 100,000 mile warranty. Being limited to 550hp, made it very easy to keep it reliable. We even ran the stock hydraulic tappets(buckets).
It's very easy to build a reliable engine, when you're only allowed to make 80% of the power the engine is capable of making.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by mekilljoydammit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 pm

I mean yes but there hasn't been really unlimited engine spec in endurance racing since the 70s. Using the '91 LeMans race again, the Jaguars were at about 730hp out of 7.4L on full kill (probably less running the full race distance) and the Sauber Mercedes V8s were at about the same power out of 5L with turbos, neither with any limits on having to homologate parts.

edit: Er, I suppose I should quantify "unlimited" because there were always displacement limits and the like - I'm talking more about in terms of "unlimited in how much power you can make out of a given displacement"

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by CamKing » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:28 pm

mekilljoydammit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:13 pm
Using the '91 LeMans race again, the Jaguars were at about 730hp out of 7.4L on full kill
But now, there is no "Full Kill".
You're no longer allowed to up the power, and pray it lasts.
Power is limited, and RPM is limited.
They're dyno mules.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by mekilljoydammit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:51 pm

I understand, but in that example, Jaguar and Mercedes could (well, I'm assuming, I wasn't there or even that old at the time) have been making more power than the 730ish that they were making in sprint race trim, but their maximum output was restricted by race distance fuel consumption. Different from the way IMSA is limiting performance, and there was more freedom for the engine makers to figure out how to meet that fuel burn limit, but still an artificial limit. My point is even at that limit they weren't quite reliable, whereas now they mostly are.

Some of this might be dreaming about engines with QC put into them while I use crappy air cooled industrial engines to burn cert fuel at my day job though. :lol:

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by CamKing » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:13 pm

mekilljoydammit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:51 pm
My point is even at that limit they weren't quite reliable, whereas now they mostly are.
They weren't reliable, because even though they had their own limits, they pushed those limits. That's part of racing.
You tell the driver to short shift, to keep the RPM down, but the driver starts pushing that limit to run a little quicker. Boom !
They run the mapping a little rich, to keep the engine cool, but they're getting pulled down the straight by their competition, so they lean it out a little. Boom !
They lower the boost to make it more reliable, but after a bad stop, they decide to make up some time, and turn the boost up. Boom !

These scenarios have all been done away with, via the rules.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by pamotorman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:28 pm

i was standing next to AJ foyt at the 24 hour at Daytona. he asked the guy next to him what time does the plane leave and the guy said in 2 hours. AJ takes over the car and in 2 laps the engine blows because he had a plane to catch. :D

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by mekilljoydammit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 pm

CamKing wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:13 pm
These scenarios have all been done away with, via the rules.
That's true enough, although I wonder how much those scenarios were still in play by, say, the Audi R8 era in the early 2000s. For better or worse, it seems like a bunch of variables that a disciplined team focusing on the whole race wouldn't want to leave up to the driver.

I don't like the whole spec stuff, or homologated parts, or the more aggressive balance of performance adjustments, but I've yet to see a way of keeping megabucks from being thrown at racing otherwise. I'm just an engineer though.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by pamotorman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:59 pm

the reason they don't want blown engines as it takes up expensive TV time for the clean up. this is why they fine them in drag racing for oiling down the track. crashes are not always avoidable but blown engines are by keeping the HP and RPMs down

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by mekilljoydammit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:28 pm

Not just that, but I don't think any team is willing to put up with blown engines anymore either - a DNF is worth about no points, after all.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by CamKing » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:39 pm

mekilljoydammit wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:51 pm
CamKing wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:13 pm
These scenarios have all been done away with, via the rules.
That's true enough, although I wonder how much those scenarios were still in play by, say, the Audi R8 era in the early 2000s. For better or worse, it seems like a bunch of variables that a disciplined team focusing on the whole race wouldn't want to leave up to the driver.
It's not just the driver. The Crew Chief, Chief Mechanic, car owner, and engineers, all make choices. Using rules to remove/limit these choices, removes much of the human aspect of racing. Might as well just watch a video game
I don't like the whole spec stuff, or homologated parts, or the more aggressive balance of performance adjustments, but I've yet to see a way of keeping megabucks from being thrown at racing otherwise. I'm just an engineer though.
If iy kept the Mega Bucks out, I'd understand, but it doesn't.
I'm working with one of the Manufacturers now, for their Daytona Prototype program.
I can tell you for a fact, those engines cost a heck of a lot more then the Porsche V8 that won in 2010, or the LS Pontiac engines before that.

All the new rules do, is protect the Manufacturers investment in the series. They don't cut costs at all. They just keep the independent engine builder from coming in and beating up on the manufacturers.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by In-Tech » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:03 pm

Yep, my first answer is a million to start. At the point the next question is how much to complete, it is a million a week to the finish line.

Mike, I hope you are getting paid.
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by mekilljoydammit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:04 pm

CamKing wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:39 pm
If iy kept the Mega Bucks out, I'd understand, but it doesn't.
I'm working with one of the Manufacturers now, for their Daytona Prototype program.
I can tell you for a fact, those engines cost a heck of a lot more then the Porsche V8 that won in 2010, or the LS Pontiac engines before that.

All the new rules do, is protect the Manufacturers investment in the series. They don't cut costs at all. They just keep the independent engine builder from coming in and beating up on the manufacturers.
Well, it hasn't turned into the European P1 class, where even the manufacturers priced themselves out of the game; I suppose that's damning by faint praise. But I've yet to see any rules where technical freedom is allowed, where costs are contained to where someone can't get more lap time by spending money - hell, I saw Scott Tucker's SCCA runoffs drive and that was just for a plastic trophy and class lap record (off topic but holy hell)

Going back on topic, other than that the power level escalated, can you offer any insight on what's driving the higher price of the "Cadillac" engine? I understood the basic rules package to be specifying a lot of the parts both in the old DP days and the new DPi (or whatever they're calling it this year) rules - castings, block, etc, but at that level I'm just a spectator.

I mean, and this is an honest question, how do you have something where there's avenues for technical development / new configurations (engine, chassis, whatever) these days where a manufacturer can't/won't just funnel more money at it for an advantage?

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