ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

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DaveMcLain
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by DaveMcLain » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:49 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:40 pm
DaveMcLain wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:36 pm
CamKing wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:06 pm

This is different then a NASCAR restrictor plate engine.
These engines can make over 600hp, but are not allowed to. IMSA dyno's them.
What we've done in the past, is design the engine to make as much power as possible, and then knock the peak HP back down to the required limit.

This has been done done legally, and illegally in the past. One team, that will remain nameless, had 2 different maps. One they raced with, and one that detuned the engine by 40hp, when they dyno tested it.
Who comes up with rules like this?
Inlet restrictors work great when trying to equalize different engine and chassis combinations. It's just another challenge for an engine builder.

SCCA GT-Lite-GT2 uses them, FIA / IMSA / FSAE also use them.

I never understood the hate. Lots of classes with restrictions on intakes, throttle body diameters, porting, or valve size do the same thing. Eventually it chokes somewhere at some RPM and you build the motor to hold on to that power as long as possible after that point.
Yes, I like restricted intake too but I don't think that's how this works. Its a "horsepower" limit.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by hoffman900 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:51 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:49 pm
hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:40 pm
DaveMcLain wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:36 pm


Who comes up with rules like this?
Inlet restrictors work great when trying to equalize different engine and chassis combinations. It's just another challenge for an engine builder.

SCCA GT-Lite-GT2 uses them, FIA / IMSA / FSAE also use them.

I never understood the hate. Lots of classes with restrictions on intakes, throttle body diameters, porting, or valve size do the same thing. Eventually it chokes somewhere at some RPM and you build the motor to hold on to that power as long as possible after that point.
Yes, I like restricted intake too but I don't think that's how this works. Its a "horsepower" limit.
The restrictors are sized to limit horsepower to 600bhp. If the rule makers miss the mark, then I could see what Mike is describing happening. SCCA GT-Lite they're sized for about 165bhp. Unless things have changed with IMSA. They've been using the inlet restrictors since the early 20-teens.
-Bob

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by pamotorman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:42 pm

racing used to ingenuity in action, the smartest teams won but that was not what the losers wanted. they should outlaw computers and engineers at the track. have them back at the shop but not in the pits

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by hoffman900 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:47 pm

pamotorman wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:42 pm
racing used to ingenuity in action, the smartest teams won but that was not what the losers wanted. they should outlaw computers and engineers at the track. have them back at the shop but not in the pits
You contradicted yourself in so many ways. :lol:

Engineers don't engineer at the track. The cars show up ready to race.

But this might be more your speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Hbnf128NU

(and even then, the engineers were at the track and they used abacuses to build the things).
-Bob

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by MadBill » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:52 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:51 pm
DaveMcLain wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:49 pm
hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:40 pm


Inlet restrictors work great when trying to equalize different engine and chassis combinations. It's just another challenge for an engine builder.

SCCA GT-Lite-GT2 uses them, FIA / IMSA / FSAE also use them.

I never understood the hate. Lots of classes with restrictions on intakes, throttle body diameters, porting, or valve size do the same thing. Eventually it chokes somewhere at some RPM and you build the motor to hold on to that power as long as possible after that point.
Yes, I like restricted intake too but I don't think that's how this works. Its a "horsepower" limit.
The restrictors are sized to limit horsepower to 600bhp. If the rule makers miss the mark, then I could see what Mike is describing happening. SCCA GT-Lite they're sized for about 165bhp. Unless things have changed with IMSA. They've been using the inlet restrictors since the early 20-teens.
In most series using them, restrictor sizes (as well as other factors*) gets juggled frequently to maintain the "Balance of Performance", sometimes with only hours of notice, e.g. qualify too well and get a 1 mm reduction for the race... #-o
*Some years ago, for their first race a pair of factory-backed Cadillacs qualified 1st and 2nd. One led start to finish; the other stumbled on the start and was last away, but was up to second in a couple of laps. By the next race they had been handed a less competitive transmission, a 200# weight penalty, a couple of mm reduction in the restrictors... Shoulda sand-bagged it I guess.
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by Newold1 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:12 pm

Where would the world of automotive and other forms of racing be today if every vehicle and engine was homologated to be the same ! ? Think about it !

This in my opinion will eventually kill the fan support and success of all racing programs PERIOD !"" Viva la difference" Long live the differences !

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by pamotorman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:17 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:47 pm
pamotorman wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:42 pm
racing used to ingenuity in action, the smartest teams won but that was not what the losers wanted. they should outlaw computers and engineers at the track. have them back at the shop but not in the pits
You contradicted yourself in so many ways. :lol:

Engineers don't engineer at the track. The cars show up ready to race.

But this might be more your speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Hbnf128NU

(and even then, the engineers were at the track and they used abacuses to build the things).
they use computer programs at the track that tells them under which conditions should we pit or not . they also use the computer programs during practice and set up days to get the cars to handle which use to be done by the crew chiefs. most all the big teams the car chief is a engineer with a computer. needing a car chief just add hundreds of thousands of dollars to the team budget

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by hoffman900 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:20 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:12 pm
Where would the world of automotive and other forms of racing be today if every vehicle and engine was homologated to be the same ! ? Think about it !

This in my opinion will eventually kill the fan support and success of all racing programs PERIOD !"" Viva la difference" Long live the differences !
They're not. It's an engineering challenge to fit each platform to a certain power level. They all make different torque curves and the chassis all weigh differently.

The beauty of road racing is that each track suits a certain style - heavier / higher hp cars are more competitive on different tracks and the lighter / lower hp cars are more competitive on others.

Drag racing requires rules to add variety. A 1/4 mile track is the same regardless of location and because of that, combinations will be refined over time to one ideal. Walk around the pits of most drag strips and it's a lot of cookie-cutter stuff.
-Bob

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by hoffman900 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:23 pm

pamotorman wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:17 pm
hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:47 pm
pamotorman wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:42 pm
racing used to ingenuity in action, the smartest teams won but that was not what the losers wanted. they should outlaw computers and engineers at the track. have them back at the shop but not in the pits
You contradicted yourself in so many ways. :lol:

Engineers don't engineer at the track. The cars show up ready to race.

But this might be more your speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Hbnf128NU

(and even then, the engineers were at the track and they used abacuses to build the things).
they use computer programs at the track that tells them under which conditions should we pit or not . they also use the computer programs during practice and set up days to get the cars to handle which use to be done by the crew chiefs. most all the big teams the car chief is a engineer with a computer. needing a car chief just add hundreds of thousands of dollars to the team budget
You can find a 14 year old that could write those algorithms for you in about 10 minutes. Give them another hour and they could probably make it an app on your phone.

They use to use stop watches and calculate everything out by hand (or with a calculator). If anything, the racing is better with the use of computers. You can't unlearn technology and uneducated yourself.

What seems foreign, complicated, and expensive to you may not be. "Kids" may not be into cars today, but they could program circles around anyone here. Find a way to get them to put their skills to use with cars. Shit-canning technology and talking about how everything use to be better with carburetors is a sure fire way to keep them far away.

As an older millennial, I really don't see the nostalgia. Sure the cars are cool, but most races that were recorded are on Youtube now and I can watch them myself (and not get the race filtered through the glasses of nostalgia). Most of the time they were runaway races or very few were on the lead lap. That includes Trans Am, Can Am, NASCAR, etc.
-Bob

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by Newold1 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:41 pm

They try this and use it way to much today in K thru 12 education in public schools today and its a great disaster in the making here in the USA ! JMO

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by hoffman900 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:46 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:41 pm
They try this and use it way to much today in K thru 12 education in public schools today and its a great disaster in the making here in the USA ! JMO
:lol: Right, I forgot everyone over the age of 50 is a super genius. Man, just think if public education was what it use to be!

So much of this on here today
Image

This place can be a real drag sometimes...

Everyone ignored the professionally developed racing engine and all the good information that could be gleaned from that article (that no one talked about and hoped they were) and instead we have people talking about how everything sucks and everything use to be better (when it's not). :roll:
-Bob

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by LSP » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:15 pm

[/quote]

That is one thing I couldn't find in the article. What cylinder head is on these things?
[/quote]

It's not a LS7 head as the ebay link says. The valve centers are moved, unlike any other LS based head, custom pistons and rocker stands are required. A smaller bore version of the engine/head was used also.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by CGT » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:02 pm

LSP wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:15 pm
That is one thing I couldn't find in the article. What cylinder head is on these things?
[/quote]

It's not a LS7 head as the ebay link says. The valve centers are moved, unlike any other LS based head, custom pistons and rocker stands are required. A smaller bore version of the engine/head was used also.
[/quote]
Thank you. I'm not seeing them available from GM. Do you know where the originally come from? They resemble ls7 style heads in some ways but not in others. The GM casting number in the article does not convert or cross-reference into GM.

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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by LSP » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:07 pm

They are GM ECR castings as mentioned. I didn't look closer but the heads I saw had no external casting #'s at all. T&D makes the rocker gear for them, not sure on the intake. Call ECR and ask for Danny Slack, he may have rocker gear and intakes for sale that will work.
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Re: ECR GM LS Daytona Prototype engines

Post by pamotorman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:44 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:23 pm
pamotorman wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:17 pm
hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:47 pm


You contradicted yourself in so many ways. :lol:

Engineers don't engineer at the track. The cars show up ready to race.

But this might be more your speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Hbnf128NU

(and even then, the engineers were at the track and they used abacuses to build the things).
they use computer programs at the track that tells them under which conditions should we pit or not . they also use the computer programs during practice and set up days to get the cars to handle which use to be done by the crew chiefs. most all the big teams the car chief is a engineer with a computer. needing a car chief just add hundreds of thousands of dollars to the team budget
You can find a 14 year old that could write those algorithms for you in about 10 minutes. Give them another hour and they could probably make it an app on your phone.

They use to use stop watches and calculate everything out by hand (or with a calculator). If anything, the racing is better with the use of computers. You can't unlearn technology and uneducated yourself.

What seems foreign, complicated, and expensive to you may not be. "Kids" may not be into cars today, but they could program circles around anyone here. Find a way to get them to put their skills to use with cars. Shit-canning technology and talking about how everything use to be better with carburetors is a sure fire way to keep them far away.

As an older millennial, I really don't see the nostalgia. Sure the cars are cool, but most races that were recorded are on Youtube now and I can watch them myself (and not get the race filtered through the glasses of nostalgia). Most of the time they were runaway races or very few were on the lead lap. That includes Trans Am, Can Am, NASCAR, etc.
my point was before a lot more people could afford to race. all this added expanse has driven the average guy out of racing. i built engines that ran the Daytona 500 and other NASCAR big track racing events and you can not do that anymore. all these racing associations are having trouble filling the fields because it is too expensive.

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