Chinese juuk?????

[kimosabi]

Well there's maximizing profit and then you have profit. I agree the source of alot of low cost low quality parts are because of maximizing profit.

Profit is making something and selling it to end user for enough that you can make a living and maybe gain some overhead, but you don't need to compromize.

Maximizing profit is all about looking at compromise to squeeze out as much money as you can.

[hoffman900]

China would be fine, if we got china prices. That goes for auto parts and mechanic tools, shoes etc. Problem is the importer gets his $ the retailer gets his $, and we pay American prices. Like a $5 pair of shoes we pay $60. for and they last maybe 6 months if your lucky. That is the huge problem with china junk. Just let me have the china price and I'd be happy. Whats a china crank cost? Let me have it for the $10. and not the huge mark up.

Isn’t capitalism great?

Stuff is priced what it is because that is what it will sell out, and maximize profits. If people stopped buying it at that price point, then prices would have to come down (or cease being manufactured).

Racing is an expensive sport - people have to be paying for it with something...

[roc]

The issue is you're buying low cost parts. They would have been crappy to begin with from anywhere.

Mark's posts describe exactly what I've heard from others in manufacturing.

I don't contest that bad parts can be bought anywhere in the world. The difference is that firms go to China for a cost reason. And the Chinese in general don't have a lot of pride in their products. They only care about their profit.

Americans are no different. No profit, no company.

I used to build about 400 engines a year, with a comeback rate of well under 1%. Most of them were Chinese rods and cranks. I had a pile of Scat Billets in stock when the Chinese Ford cranks came in. I had to eBay them at a sizeable loss. Did I have to work onthe Chinese cranks before they went in? Of course. Did that break....no. Not at 500 H/P, 1,000 H/P, or at 1,700 H/P. And I had to work on everyone else's too. We were building engines, not assembling them.

Let's use the standard pins you get with pistons today. Most of them come from China or Argentina. Ever hear about the problems? No? That's because there aren't any. If you want a $2.00 American pin, I'll happily teach you how to make them, because there is no American source.

Burgess-Norton makes crap, Trend is very good, but spendy, and Elgin quit making them because the customers wouldn't pay what it cost to make them, plus profit.

Again, I indicated the driver of the market.

If you don't want to use offshore parts, don't. What anyone else does, however, is none of your concern. Just build your 10 to 12K short block and be happy.

Great post Mark

[Morgo]

Well,almost anything currently is made in China so the question is "how good quality part you want?" If you want the cheapest possible one you get that.Then if you specify some quality attributes for the product (and send inspector to see that the specs are at least to tried to achieve) the Chinese
will do that.If you pay accordingly.The whole problem is those who want everything as cheap as possible to maxime the profit

[Newold1]

Until the spread between actual wages and benefits, taxes, etc. between China and most of the rest of the highly developed countries gets a lot closer you are never going to see some parody in parts costs. With the billions, yes billions of workers willing to train and be used in manufacturing in China today who work for a few dollars a day or less comparing costs of manufacture is like trying to prove that screen doors work well on the hulls of submarines!
As China steals a lot of our and others in the world's technology, innovation, methods and high quality material technology I don't think that parody will be achieved in the next couple of decades at best and at worst may never happen. I think the idea we can better manufacture or better produce than China is way to optimistic and almost foolish thought.
Just look at the billion dollar new auto factory BMW built in China and now produces engines and cars at a level BMW feels match it German counterparts! There are some videos on line that show this level of production and development. Get our heads out of the sand, quit hiding be hind our flag and past and realize the only global and domestic fix for our future industrial economy is to so improve our "EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, EMPHASIS AND INSTITUTIONS WITH VERY AFFORDABLE CURRICULUM" such that our children or grandchildren receive the best possible technology and innovation learning we can possibly equip them with. Fields and careers in our arena just like math, science, material technology, CAD/CAM, Finite Analysis, CFD. 3D, nano technology,etc.,etc., should be available at much lower cost and more readily available to the younger generations to make sure that we stay the "Head and Brain" of the worlds industries.
If we can't accomplish this I am afraid we will become just another "THIRD WORLD" country !
The clock is ticking and "ignorance is bliss when you are fat,dumb and happy!"

[roc]

Until the spread between actual wages and benefits, taxes, etc. between China and most of the rest of the highly developed countries gets a lot closer you are never going to see some parody in parts costs. With the billions, yes billions of workers willing to train and be used in manufacturing in China today who work for a few dollars a day or less comparing costs of manufacture is like trying to prove that screen doors work well on the hulls of submarines!
As China steals a lot of our and others in the world's technology, innovation, methods and high quality material technology I don't think that parody will be achieved in the next couple of decades at best and at worst may never happen. I think the idea we can better manufacture or better produce than China is way to optimistic and almost foolish thought.
Just look at the billion dollar new auto factory BMW built in China and now produces engines and cars at a level BMW feels match it German counterparts! There are some videos on line that show this level of production and development. Get our heads out of the sand, quit hiding be hind our flag and past and realize the only global and domestic fix for our future industrial economy is to so improve our "EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, EMPHASIS AND INSTITUTIONS WITH VERY AFFORDABLE CURRICULUM" such that our children or grandchildren receive the best possible technology and innovation learning we can possibly equip them with. Fields and careers in our arena just like math, science, material technology, CAD/CAM, Finite Analysis, CFD. 3D, nano technology,etc.,etc., should be available at much lower cost and more readily available to the younger generations to make sure that we stay the "Head and Brain" of the worlds industries.
If we can't accomplish this I am afraid we will become just another "THIRD WORLD" country !
The clock is ticking and "ignorance is bliss when you are fat,dumb and happy!"

Great post Newold1

[user-23911]

"ignorance is bliss when you are fat,dumb and happy!"

That's how most outsiders see Americans.

[Belgian1979]

The issue is you're buying low cost parts. They would have been crappy to begin with from anywhere.

Mark's posts describe exactly what I've heard from others in manufacturing.

I don't contest that bad parts can be bought anywhere in the world. The difference is that firms go to China for a cost reason. And the Chinese in general don't have a lot of pride in their products. They only care about their profit.

I'm curious. Do you work for free.

Or do you do it for the "profit?"

Nope, but I take pride in my work.

[Belgian1979]

Very interesting point of views from guys that have been there and observed themselves. Thanks.

Let me explain a case I have been working on the explain to 'Chinese way' of doing business :

A company produces speakers for oem car stereo systems. They supply the an OEM all over the world. The cones for the speakers are produced in ...you can guess, China. Over Chinese New Year, their factory was closed for 14 days. In that time some fungus spread from their toilets through the ventilation system and into the production area.
The customer gets a complaint from GM that the cones of their speakers exhibit a fungus. They get to pay the bill to replace the speakers and to sort out the remaining speakers in the GM warehouses. Pretty expensive claim.

After some investigation it (factory was, kinda, cleaned up) it turned out that fungus spread in their factory. The costs of the oem were claimed back from them. The answer was :
- 1.we are not going to pay for it or we will bankrupt our company and you don't have an alternative that is accepted by the OEM, so you're stuck with us.
- 2. we are going to bake the cones now, but you're going to pay for the cost. We cannot get the fungus out of our factory entirely and you will pay as well to clean our factory.
- 3. We are willing to sell our company but at twice it's current worth economically.

They decided to pay for the baking process and in the mean time startup a new line in Europe that is certified by the OEM and will cost them in the millions.

Thus far the Chinese way.

[Tuner]

The year was 1996 and I bought Chinese crank & rods For my SBC-400 which was a GM block with 4 bolt steel caps, and a 871. Went to the dyno,made 39 pulls, made 750 hp. Put in a 3800#car and ran it for years at the track,turning low 10s at 130...Sold it to a friend he put a wilder cam and heads went up to 850 hp and ran it for years, sold to another friend who added 250 nitrous, he ran 3 runs making orer 950 hp turning 8.80 in a 3500# car and blew it up. Would you call it Chinese JUNK Oldhead

oldnumbhead posted this from his chicom made 0'boner phone

what would you call that

[Mark O'Neal]

China would be fine, if we got china prices. That goes for auto parts and mechanic tools, shoes etc. Problem is the importer gets his $ the retailer gets his $, and we pay American prices. Like a $5 pair of shoes we pay $60. for and they last maybe 6 months if your lucky. That is the huge problem with china junk. Just let me have the china price and I'd be happy. Whats a china crank cost? Let me have it for the $10. and not the huge mark up.

Go to China, they'll happily sell you as much as you want.

But there aren't any ten dollar cranks.

[Mark O'Neal]

I don't contest that bad parts can be bought anywhere in the world. The difference is that firms go to China for a cost reason. And the Chinese in general don't have a lot of pride in their products. They only care about their profit.

I'm curious. Do you work for free.

Or do you do it for the "profit?"

Nope, but I take pride in my work.

Uh Huh. Every contractor I have ever hired said the same thing. I always remembered it when I was redoing whatever they screwed up.

China is exactly like America. You can have whatever quality you are willing to pay for. The trick is getting everyone to agree on that level of quality.

I suspect you don't own your business.

[Mark O'Neal]

Very interesting point of views from guys that have been there and observed themselves. Thanks.

Let me explain a case I have been working on the explain to 'Chinese way' of doing business :

A company produces speakers for oem car stereo systems. They supply the an OEM all over the world. The cones for the speakers are produced in ...you can guess, China. Over Chinese New Year, their factory was closed for 14 days. In that time some fungus spread from their toilets through the ventilation system and into the production area.
The customer gets a complaint from GM that the cones of their speakers exhibit a fungus. They get to pay the bill to replace the speakers and to sort out the remaining speakers in the GM warehouses. Pretty expensive claim.

After some investigation it (factory was, kinda, cleaned up) it turned out that fungus spread in their factory. The costs of the oem were claimed back from them. The answer was :
- 1.we are not going to pay for it or we will bankrupt our company and you don't have an alternative that is accepted by the OEM, so you're stuck with us.
- 2. we are going to bake the cones now, but you're going to pay for the cost. We cannot get the fungus out of our factory entirely and you will pay as well to clean our factory.
- 3. We are willing to sell our company but at twice it's current worth economically.

They decided to pay for the baking process and in the mean time startup a new line in Europe that is certified by the OEM and will cost them in the millions.

Thus far the Chinese way.

That's not the Chinese way, that's the universal way.

[Mark O'Neal]

Until the spread between actual wages and benefits, taxes, etc. between China and most of the rest of the highly developed countries gets a lot closer you are never going to see some parody in parts costs. With the billions, yes billions of workers willing to train and be used in manufacturing in China today who work for a few dollars a day or less comparing costs of manufacture is like trying to prove that screen doors work well on the hulls of submarines!
As China steals a lot of our and others in the world's technology, innovation, methods and high quality material technology I don't think that parody will be achieved in the next couple of decades at best and at worst may never happen. I think the idea we can better manufacture or better produce than China is way to optimistic and almost foolish thought.
Just look at the billion dollar new auto factory BMW built in China and now produces engines and cars at a level BMW feels match it German counterparts! There are some videos on line that show this level of production and development. Get our heads out of the sand, quit hiding be hind our flag and past and realize the only global and domestic fix for our future industrial economy is to so improve our "EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, EMPHASIS AND INSTITUTIONS WITH VERY AFFORDABLE CURRICULUM" such that our children or grandchildren receive the best possible technology and innovation learning we can possibly equip them with. Fields and careers in our arena just like math, science, material technology, CAD/CAM, Finite Analysis, CFD. 3D, nano technology,etc.,etc., should be available at much lower cost and more readily available to the younger generations to make sure that we stay the "Head and Brain" of the worlds industries.
If we can't accomplish this I am afraid we will become just another "THIRD WORLD" country !
The clock is ticking and "ignorance is bliss when you are fat,dumb and happy!"

Fat chance on the education. I had a standing policy that I would pay for anyone that would go learn to do their own programming.

One, exactly one, in thirty years. Americans are quite content to be loaders (a 17,000.00 robot will also suffice), they are not going to put any effort into anything other than dope, booze, and video games. Well, that and downloading [Blank Post] on any computer they can get access to.

[Geoff2]

I am in Australia & I have no complaints [ generally! ] about the cost of Chinese parts. I can buy new complete HEIs here for a Chev, polished billet body, complete, Rynite cap, adj vac adv, with a steel gear compatible with roller cams, for $60. $80 for other V8s. Copy of the MSD DynaForce 3.4 hp starter,[ even painted in MSD red! Hmm ] for $129. Looks identical when placed side by side with the Chinese version. Probably made in the same factory as the MSD, just go into different boxes...Summit sell the MSD starter for $288..

Maybe in the US some of the suppliers/re-sellers are a bit greedy...