Cryogenic Treatment

[Dave Koehler]

hard sell, can be.
I had the Metalax deal before the internet.
The only way to get new customers other than my own sphere of influence was print advertising which took months to return a dividend.
The ROI didn't work out so I moved on.

[Frankshaft]

hard sell, can be.
I had the Metalax deal before the internet.
The only way to get new customers other than my own sphere of influence was print advertising which took months to return a dividend.
The ROI didn't work out so I moved on.

I bet the salesman made it sound like you would be on easy street sitting on a beach drinking myties all day after 6-8 months though I bet.

[Dave Koehler]

hard sell, can be.
I had the Metalax deal before the internet.
The only way to get new customers other than my own sphere of influence was print advertising which took months to return a dividend.
The ROI didn't work out so I moved on.

I bet the salesman made it sound like you would be on easy street sitting on a beach drinking myties all day after 6-8 months though I bet.

Well, isn't that the norm for equipment reps?

[inline6]

I have done some engine blocks and parts. Again hard to quantify. I did some brake rotors on a couple of street cars and they were sold before really seeing if it helped. Someone said do some throw away shavers I guess they would last a month or much longer then normal. It seems if I recall they did!

I have a SBF 331 block pushing 470rwhp turning 8K. Been together 6 years. The whole short block is treated. I just documented what I took in on my build sheet.

Scott

[DaveMcLain]

I am still into tube audio , and I send out many of my tubes for cryo treatment and not only do they last longer, but they sound a tad better!

I'm an audio guy, not sure if this is a funny or sarcasm or real? Because cyroing different joined materials that includes glass, that needs to maintain a vacuum seal, would seem to be rather problematic, if nothing else.

There's so much variation from one tube to the next that it would be tough to say that it made any difference. Most tubes are heated using induction to flash the getters after they are evacuated and that of course is done to extend their useful life so who knows..

[pamotorman]

i did aluminum connecting rods for 5 HP briggs kart engines. i did a Rockwell hardness test before and after and it did not seem to change but the rods seem to last longer before they broke.

[jed]

When I was doing SCCA spec Miata engines I cryoed the whole engine, block to head and all parts in between.
They made 3/4 to 1-1/2 more hp.
A national champ engine made 118 hp. And they seemed to have a longer life.
John

[modok]

Cryo should reduce the tendency of hardened iron lifters and cams to wear by pitting.
Do half the lifters and let us know. In my limited experience, deep freeze and a temper after did help, and really does not cost much nor make any dimensional change.

[Frankshaft]

When I was doing SCCA spec Miata engines I cryoed the whole engine, block to head and all parts in between.
They made 3/4 to 1-1/2 more hp.
A national champ engine made 118 hp. And they seemed to have a longer life.
John

Is even possible to measure a 3/4 to 1.5 hp change?

[jed]

Let me be perfectly clear LOL I had the same question. the shop I was doing the engines for installed the engines and dyno tuned them. The shop owner assured me they could read small HP changes.
I was never around when the engines were tuned I just took his word for it and smiled all the way to the bank.
The engine program went on for about 5 years until he went another direction. I still got a few engines but not
near the number I was getting.

[Dave Koehler]

Yeah, it's possible but it might be relative to the total hp.
I have a local guy that specializes in dynoing stuff that is 300 hp and down.
Does a lot of road race and even rotary stuff.
Now that dyno is his baby and has spent years detailing and blueprinting it and the room it is contained in.
I asked him one time about all the sweat equity he has in it and his response was when you are dealing with 200 hp or less it has to be able to pick up the smallest variation repeatably.
It is apparently sensitive enough that he picked up an anomaly that he traced down to the engine to dyno connector.
I balanced it for him and the anomaly went away.

[HDBD]

Cryo as stated in this discussion depends almost totally on the metal being cryo'd and its usage and in many cases where it improves the strength and wear improvements has been documented and proved in may performance and racing applications. It does work, you just need to know how and where to use it in my opinion.

Great response there.
Same can be said about heat treatment and other metal hardening and annealing techniques.
I don't think we have documented procedures for cryo because it is not typically used on FAA approved aircraft.
No destructive or wear tests to cite.
Am I wrong?

[donclark]

A lot of the stuff that comes out of Liberty's Gears is cryo treated. I have noticed our sliders and especially the engagement dogs on the gears last much longer than the old days......

[John Ross]

I have had a LOT of rifle barrels cryoed, especially machine gun barrels. Back in the '80s, in the days of nickel-a-round surplus ammo and when barrels for the MG42 (German MG that fires 8x57 rifle cartridges @ 20 rounds/sec) were available new in the grease for $20 each, I took a lot of ribbing from guys who were all too happy to pitch a $20 barrel after a few thousand rounds through it, because they had a dozen more as spares, and they figured they could always buy more on the cheap.

I suffered from no such delusion, and realized changes to import laws could dry up the supply overnight. IIRC I had 40 MG42 barrels done for a bit less than $500 at the time.

Cryo treatment almost tripled barrel life before bullets started keyholing. As an aside, I got $600 for the last unfired MG42 barrel I sold two years ago...

JR

[Jeff Lee]

I just acquired a NOS AMC NASCAR block; supposedly one of 100 specially made for Penske Racing. Nothing special other than extremely thick cylinder bores. NOS blocks do not make good race blocks as they have not gone through the normal thermal cycles a passenger car block would while in service. At least that’s what the Direct Connection bible said back in the ’70’s! With that in mind, I have access to a powder coat oven and the owner will place my block in the oven, get it to 200* and pull it out and cool for the day. Will repeat this cycle every other day or so for a month and call it good. Then I want to cryo the block before going to the machine shop. It will be bored no more than +.080”. Sound like a good plan?

FYI - I did cryo treatment to OEM stamped steel “shoe style” rocker arms for Stock Eliminator racing before NHRA allowed the use of roller rockers. It made the rockers noticeably harder but I felt more fragile. A standard rocker (no cryo) would “tear” at the fulcrum point if there was a failure. A cryo rocker would “shatter” and distribute parts around the head at times. Stopped using cryo here.