Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by Carnut1 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:14 am

I would go 347 sbf with nice aluminum heads. Maybe 331 sbf long rod with same heads. Easy hp, plenty rpm if done right. Fits, kits available, I plan to build on some day. Should be a fun project. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by Krooser » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:39 am

Having owned a Miata with a slightly modded engine for several years I can tell you 500 hp will put you way past what the chassis can reasonably handle.

If you just want a tire smoker you're ok.
Last place in the B-main is better than anyplace in the grandstands...

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by ptuomov » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:41 am

peejay wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:52 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:58 pm
Drivability is the eye of the beholder:

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/1600 ... 02633.html
That's great if you like dyno racing or driving (aiming) for a few seconds in a straight line.

For that matter, you can get 2000hp from a Supra engine. Maybe put that in a one-ton truck on 44s for the ultimate in useless excess.
My point being that if I had a 2.2L Honda S2000, I would not take that fantastic engine out of the car. Instead, I would add a turbocharger. Turbocharged S2000 that makes 500hp at the crankshaft is going to meet all the original poster's driving needs. (Not necessarily all tinkering needs, though.)
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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by Cubic_Cleveland » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:59 am

rz726 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:32 pm
Looking to build a weekend/trackday toy.

I do not have a machine shop at the house sadly,and would like to minimize having to farm out that type of labor.

I do have extensive experience building and/or maintaining motors from 100cc 2 strokes to Cat diesels to GE gas turbines and follow directions reasonably well.

I can do rough welding and cutting and have a brother with better skills available.

I don't want to just buy a crate motor/rolling chassis but would like to do as much hands on as I am capable of.

I am fond of but not married to GM.

I will listen to any and all advice and suggestions.TIA
I wouldn’t put a V8 in an S2000 or a Miata. Ruin the balance of the chassis.

If you go the S2000 route, a turbocharged K series engine making 500HP is child’s play, and light.

For the Miata it depends which series you buy. I own an NB, it’s a bit harder to get that power from the factory engine, but doable, or swap in an SR20 to do it easily. If you buy an NC, the Duratec platform can make 500HP no sweat. The Duratec engine won’t fit an NA/NB, too tall.

All of the options I’ve mentioned are very reliable, drivable circuit racing engines. I haven’t had much to do with BMW N54 Z4 engine, but it has a reasonable reputation, and almost makes that power factory delivered.

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by mk e » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:02 am

Pretty much every car project I've done involves more hp in a sports car.....and it really changes the driving experience. The car is certainly faster but that's not what I'm talking about, it feels different, it drives different, its a different car.

I've built stuff over the years like my infamous fiadillac
(Fiat x1/9 with vaddilac 500ci engine/trans/subframe) which was basically undrivable. But even when everything comes out exactly right.....

My current project car is a Ferrari 308, it had a little 3L v8, 235hp @6800, redline at 7700. When I first drove it my first thought was "this is great!". My second thought was "this could use more hp".
Hmmm...more hp....i added an Eaton mp90 roots blower at 9-10 psi along with a better intake and replaced the cis with efi. It made 360-380hp. Nice....the inlet temp was pretty high....

An intercooler would be nice.....i built a new manifold eith a water/air intercooler and a whipple ax2300 at about 22-24psi. It made around 600hp....wow! First gear was about useless now and I noticed it was a very different car. When I first got it I normally shifted about 4500rpm. With blower #1 I shifted around 3500. With blower #2 I noticed I was shifting around 2500 most of the time, it was at 12-15psi down there so making about double the original torque and it would just shake and go, you could now feel each piston firing....kind of cool but WAY different from where it started and not what I had intended.

Engine upgrade #3 Is back to naturally aspirated, but v12, cylinder a little bigger at 450cc instead of 375cc, but lots of cam and tuned for 9000-9500 thinking it will make lots of power up top but not the crazy off idle torwue the blower was delivering to try to get back the "sports car" feel instead of the muscle car feel it had developed. Not sure it will work out, but it's the best idea I had and I've spent bucket of time and money at this point so I'll have to say i love whether I do or not.

Maybe a little off topic but if you love the feel of a little sports car adding gobs of low end power will probably make it not feel that way any more.
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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by peejay » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:29 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:41 am
peejay wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:52 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:58 pm
Drivability is the eye of the beholder:

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/1600 ... 02633.html
That's great if you like dyno racing or driving (aiming) for a few seconds in a straight line.

For that matter, you can get 2000hp from a Supra engine. Maybe put that in a one-ton truck on 44s for the ultimate in useless excess.
My point being that if I had a 2.2L Honda S2000, I would not take that fantastic engine out of the car. Instead, I would add a turbocharger. Turbocharged S2000 that makes 500hp at the crankshaft is going to meet all the original poster's driving needs. (Not necessarily all tinkering needs, though.)
Well, maybe. I remember when the S2000 was new that they had a habit of sticking the pistons when used on track days. I made the assumption that the OP is looking for a drivetrain solution that can run all-out until the fuel tank was empty.

500hp is possible with the Miata's BP engine, as well. Just not for very long.

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by peejay » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:34 pm

mk e wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:02 am
Maybe a little off topic but if you love the feel of a little sports car adding gobs of low end power will probably make it not feel that way any more.
The throttle-ability also goes a little cockeyed because you both have a lot more engine inertia and a lot more engine braking at higher RPMs but next to none at low RPM. It's one thing to be playing with the throttle to adjust the chassis set when it's a small four cylinder turning at 4000-5000rpm, it's another when it's a V8 turning at 2000-2500.

I had a thought in my head that maybe drive by wire could be used to tune how a "large" engine responds to throttle jockeying, but that's probably another one of those ideas that I'll think about rather than do. It doesn't look like the major tuning products like HP Tuners really allow you to play with that sort of thing anyway, for liability reasons.

The idea that is rolling around in my head is a cheap early aluminum 5.3 (the ones with the "worthless" heads, so available cheap cheap cheap) and drop in a 4.8 rotating assembly, to make an aluminum 4.8. Maybe drop the 5.3 internals in the 4.8 block and sell it to someone else to recoup some funds. Then add a big honkin' cam to kill off as much low end torque as possible, since low end torque is bad if you want a drivable engine. If it accidentally makes more power at the top end, that's fine too, but the real goal is to keep it from blowing the tires away so easily at the low end since we're at the bottom end of what is available displacement wise. Use a worthless takeoff LS1 intake manifold, use the Corvette drive by wire throttle and PCM controls. The smallest torque converter possible that has an acceptable stall speed, to minimize rotating weight. That's the expensive part.

The part that raises eyebrows is I want to do this with a 200-4R, because the gear ratios are a lot better than the 4L60.

The stupid part is, I'd rather have a 289 or even a 221/260 but the aluminum 4.8 idea is cheaper. And Ford has yet to make an overdrive automatic that isn't an embarassment to the gods of planetary gears.

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by Mark O'Neal » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:44 pm

347 SB Ford 10.5:1 AFR 185 heads and cam it to suit.

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by englertracing » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:43 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:41 am
peejay wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:52 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:58 pm
Drivability is the eye of the beholder:

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/1600 ... 02633.html
That's great if you like dyno racing or driving (aiming) for a few seconds in a straight line.

For that matter, you can get 2000hp from a Supra engine. Maybe put that in a one-ton truck on 44s for the ultimate in useless excess.
My point being that if I had a 2.2L Honda S2000, I would not take that fantastic engine out of the car. Instead, I would add a turbocharger. Turbocharged S2000 that makes 500hp at the crankshaft is going to meet all the original poster's driving needs. (Not necessarily all tinkering needs, though.)
:P turbo boring, twin screw exciting.....

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by englertracing » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:45 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:41 am
peejay wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:52 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:58 pm
Drivability is the eye of the beholder:

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/1600 ... 02633.html
That's great if you like dyno racing or driving (aiming) for a few seconds in a straight line.

For that matter, you can get 2000hp from a Supra engine. Maybe put that in a one-ton truck on 44s for the ultimate in useless excess.
My point being that if I had a 2.2L Honda S2000, I would not take that fantastic engine out of the car. Instead, I would add a turbocharger. Turbocharged S2000 that makes 500hp at the crankshaft is going to meet all the original poster's driving needs. (Not necessarily all tinkering needs, though.)
It will have soggy off idle throttle response at low rpm, and load dependent throttle response at higher rpm
A 450 HP twin screw motor sounds better than a 500hp turbo motor to me for tight precision work

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by mk e » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:02 pm

peejay wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:34 pm




I had a thought in my head that maybe drive by wire could be used to tune how a "large" engine responds to throttle jockeying, but that's probably another one of those ideas that I'll think about rather than do. It doesn't look like the major tuning products like HP Tuners really allow you to play with that sort of thing anyway, for liability reasons.
The ECU I have (enginelab) let's you program anything you please....the down side is you HAVE to program everything as it comes with nothing. I have a pretty good model (program) put together now, but I have the electroni throttle working on just a simple 2d MAP, so you can set the pedal/throttle ratio any way you please which seems to work well, and I wrote a stall saver/ idle control/traction control I haven't tested yet, but nothing fancier......but it certainly could be added easily enough. I love this ecu for that.

I don't know if you could get what you're after this way....for sure compression breaking could be reduced as much as you like. The low end torque could be limited to any number you want. Not sure if it would feel "right" though....maybe.
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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by j-c-c » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:01 am

My thinking is the Op is taking a great handling balanced car, proceed in making it a car that he will till time ends, using lots of effort and money, to attempt to reclaim that lost balance. A man needs to know his limitations, to paraphrase Dirty Harry.

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by pdq67 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:45 pm

I don't know why, BUT I keep thinking that back then I could have walked into our local Ford dealership and bought me a COBRA!! And all not that much more than I paid for my, "year 1966", 350SS/RS Camaro optioned like I did my car.

I didn't even know they existed just like that I didn't know about the Z-28 Camaro cars until much later!

Now bttt, maybe a BOP 215" all aluminum V-8 might work here?? B&S it out to about 300"s or so and then hop it up and go. Oh, and btw, a big, strong man can pack onna the little suckers right off! I had both, an Olds and a Buick years ago..

I still have the Buick's AFB 4-barrel intake because it is so small and cute that I couldn't scrap it!! The Olds intake had the top so that it would seal the turbocharger!

pdq67!

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by plovett » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:39 pm

A nice budget build would be a used Explorer 5.0 short block with some good alloy heads added. With aluminum heads, intake, water pump, and radiator, it would be very light. Put a solid cam (flat or roller) in it and spin it high.

JMO,

paulie

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Re: Light weight 500hp driveable motor for Miata/S2000/Z4

Post by ptuomov » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:25 pm

If you have a Honda S2000 with the 2.2L engine, it’s a felony to take out that motor and a misdemeanor not to turbocharge it.
[b]Paradigms often shift without the clutch[/b] -- [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxn-LxwsrnU[/url]

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