Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:54 am

I got an email the other day saying 6 was out and offering the upgrade....I bit and just started playing with it and its giving me results I don't understand.

So...anyone else playing with it yet?

In -5 I modeled tr-y headers as a low rpm and a high rpm design and it seemed to work out well. Opening the files in -6 everything makes a lot less hp, which might be right (high rpm file is 940 vs 834, low rpm file is 922 vs 866) but oddly the low rpm header makes a lot more hp than the high rpm version. -6 can do tri-y in one sim it says, and modeled that way the the peak matches the high rpm file at 834 so it seems to agree that I header modeled right for high rpm, but when only given the low rpm dimensions it likes that much better.

I'm seeing something odd in the intake waves too.....it no longer seems to go out of tune above the tuned rpm? The the wave continues to build with rpm so the hp never drops....that can't be right. I'll play with it a bit more but I think I need to send these files off to Larry and see what he thinks is going on.

I'm having a little trouble with it on my win7 machine too....it says it can't unzip the files when it tries to do and update. My win10 computer works fine. I was also surprise the program came on a CD.....I no longer have a computer with a CD player and had to run out and buy a remote player to instal it.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:09 am

mk e wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:54 am


In -5 I modeled tr-y headers as a low rpm and a high rpm design and it seemed to work out well. Opening the files in -6 everything makes a lot less hp, which might be right (high rpm file is 940 vs 834, low rpm file is 922 vs 866) but oddly the low rpm header makes a lot more hp than the high rpm version. -6 can do tri-y in one sim it says, and modeled that way the the peak matches the high rpm file at 834 so it seems to agree that I header modeled right for high rpm, but when only given the low rpm dimensions it likes that much better.
hmmmm....set the simulation to hybrid (wave+fill/empty) and the hp mostly comes back 909, and drops as expected once things should be going out of tune. Thats really weird because in the past the hybrid was like 90 f/e at low rpm and 90/wave at high rpm so the bottom looked like the f/e sim and the top looked like the waves sim....but I now see 944 at 9400 rpm in the f/e which is exactly what the -5 gave me in the wave....weird.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:48 pm

I started to make some comparison (-5 to -6) graphs but decided I was seeing things that were just too weird and sent the files and notes off to Larry to have a look at before I spend any more time on it. He says he'll have a look at it today and let me know.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

Daniel Jones
Member
Member
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by Daniel Jones » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:00 pm

I got two different answers depending upon whether I imported the engine from a previous Dynomation 5 session or built it from scratch in Dynomation 6. I also had some engines bomb when importing them. I didn't have time to send anything off to Larry but will when I get some more time to play with it.

Dan Jones

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:32 pm

The only problems I had importing -5 files were:
The collector exit dia did not import and I had to manually enter it
The intake system choices are different, at least for IR so I had to select from the new menu

As for a new model vs import being different, I didn't try that. I did notice a couple things on the menus that are different default to import though

the standard air conditions have changed, there are several options on a drop-down
fuel evaporative cooling is different
Intake ave temp is different 120 import, 180 new file.

There is a new feature in the FE model for header tuned rpm.....so you can use the info you get from an equation or pipemax to get that right, it also tells you what the recommended basic header dimensions are for the rpm you select...not pipemax but still helpful. I tried plugging the numbers in and they seemed to work well in the wave sim.

I played with the new tri-y and step-header options in the wave model a bit....and the output is nearly identical to what I was get if I select standard 4-1 and enter taper tube dimensions for a step-header or assume the first collector acts as part of the primary with a tri-y....so I guess I was modeling it right in -5 that didn't have the new options.

There is some nice stuff....but I think its got a couple bugs that need to get sorted.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:52 pm

Oh, also I noticed its got a selection for thermal coatings on piston, head or both. I use surprised to see how much power it thinks that adds.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

User avatar
MadBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 12504
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: The Great White North

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by MadBill » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 pm

Does the presence of coatings change best power AFR or exhaust dimensions? (My stone-age floppy disc version of DM drops estimated power like a hot rock if I input anything but 12.5:1.)
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:43 am

MadBill wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 pm
Does the presence of coatings change best power AFR or exhaust dimensions? (My stone-age floppy disc version of DM drops estimated power like a hot rock if I input anything but 12.5:1.)
I've not played with it to that level yet....there seem to be a couple bugs hiding in the intake and I think exhaust wave calculations, so that's what I've been looking at and sending file and details of what I think I'm seeing to Larry. I got a note from Larry that he found one in the intake stuff that could cause what I was see and he's working to fix it.....but I strongly suspect theres another in the exaust too.

There is now intake runner heating and fuel cooling of the intake charge but I suspect it still wants 12.5:1 for the mixture.....i'll play with it though once the main stuff is a bit more stable.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

pastry_chef
Member
Member
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by pastry_chef » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:41 pm

About Dynomation 5 I've heard many people say the optimizations resulted in abnormally wide LSA for cams.
Often 114 to 116 LSA for low compression (10:1) solid roller combos under 6500 RPM.

Strong real world combos seem to often be less than 110 LSA. EMC engines often around 106 or less.
Mike R

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:23 pm

pastry_chef wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:41 pm
About Dynomation 5 I've heard many people say the optimizations resulted in abnormally wide LSA for cams.
Often 114 to 116 LSA for low compression (10:1) solid roller combos under 6500 RPM.

Strong real world combos seem to often be less than 110 LSA. EMC engines often around 106 or less.
On my project engine the cams are in at 106 lsa and when i just ran the quick iterator it found nothing better.

I got to the 106 just playing ....roll the cams, change the stack length, cams again......you get to where you can move things around a little but not really make anything better.

There is a pro iterator that changes the lobes themselves, but I've never really found that very helpful.....it will search it's cam library for the closest, but.....i don't use that for anything.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

pastry_chef
Member
Member
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by pastry_chef » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:45 pm

mk e wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:23 pm
On my project engine the cams are in at 106 lsa and when i just ran the quick iterator it found nothing better.

I got to the 106 just playing ....roll the cams, change the stack length, cams again....
Is yours a dual cam setup?
What do you mean by stack length?
Mike R

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:29 pm

pastry_chef wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:45 pm
mk e wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:23 pm
On my project engine the cams are in at 106 lsa and when i just ran the quick iterator it found nothing better.

I got to the 106 just playing ....roll the cams, change the stack length, cams again....
Is yours a dual cam setup?
What do you mean by stack length?
Yes, dual cams.....but I don't know for sure what that tool does, I'd have to play with it some more, it doesn't say in the manual what exactly it tries, just that it runs 1250 or 2500 variations.

It's ITB, so total intate system valve to top of velocity stack. The headers can be tweaked too...but I already had them build so I didn't play with that but looked to set the csms and intakes dtacks to work best with them.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:01 am

mk e wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:23 pm
pastry_chef wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:41 pm
About Dynomation 5 I've heard many people say the optimizations resulted in abnormally wide LSA for cams.
Often 114 to 116 LSA for low compression (10:1) solid roller combos under 6500 RPM.

Strong real world combos seem to often be less than 110 LSA. EMC engines often around 106 or less.
On my project engine the cams are in at 106 lsa and when i just ran the quick iterator it found nothing better.

I got to the 106 just playing ....roll the cams, change the stack length, cams again......you get to where you can move things around a little but not really make anything better.

There is a pro iterator that changes the lobes themselves, but I've never really found that very helpful.....it will search it's cam library for the closest, but.....i don't use that for anything.
Just because I hadn't used it in s long time I ran a couple Sims with the pro iterator in -5.

Best tq 5k-9k (redline is 9500 on this engine) it said I could gain 10% with a lsa of 88 and 25 degrees more duration.

Best tq 2500-8500 it says 1% gain at lsa 105 and 10 degrees less duration which is likely a cam that can't be made without cutting lift.

So will absolutely predict narrow LSA as optimal and is a decent starting point....but then you need to find and work with lobes that are actually available or possible.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

User avatar
MadBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 12504
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: The Great White North

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by MadBill » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:37 pm

pastry_chef wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:41 pm
About Dynomation 5 I've heard many people say the optimizations resulted in abnormally wide LSA for cams.
Often 114 to 116 LSA for low compression (10:1) solid roller combos under 6500 RPM.

Strong real world combos seem to often be less than 110 LSA. EMC engines often around 106 or less.
One would expect more of later editions, but: going back a loooong way, it took me a while to realize my stone-age DOS-based Dynomation program really hates big EVC numbers, so when I just followed where it led I ended up with too wide LSAs (as much as 118°), due to up to 20° "early from real world optimum" EVCs. Now I just throw in what it wants (usually ~ 25-28° ATC), do all my development with that number, then make an educated guess based on IVO and experience. The cam I specced out this way for a 630 HP @ 8,000 306" SBF road racer was within 2° on durations and LSA of CamKing's recommendation.
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Dynomation6, anyone else playing with?

Post by mk e » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:38 pm

MadBill wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:37 pm
pastry_chef wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:41 pm

One would expect more of later editions, but: going back a loooong way, it took me a while to realize my stone-age DOS-based Dynomation program really hates big EVC numbers, so when I just followed where it led I ended up with too wide LSAs (as much as 118°), due to up to 20° "early from real world optimum" EVCs. Now I just throw in what it wants (usually ~ 25-28° ATC), do all my development with that number, then make an educated guess based on IVO and experience. The cam I specced out this way for a 630 HP @ 8,000 306" SBF road racer was within 2° on durations and LSA of CamKing's recommendation.
I don't think that is a problem in -5. My project is set to EVC 32.1 (seat) which it likes, the 5-9k iteration spit out 60, but the 2500-8500 spit out 22.1. Quite a range depending on what question I ask it and LSA that is too narrow if anything.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

Post Reply