8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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GARY C
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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by GARY C » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:25 am

piston guy wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:23 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:31 pm
piston guy wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:56 pm
This has me thinking about a fixture to "precondition" toilet paper. :wink:
Why would you want to wipe with pre sh!tted tp?
Same reason someone would run rings that were "pre lapped" to a different cylinder than they were to be used in.
They both seem like a really messy pain in the a$$!

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by DaveMcLain » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:26 pm

piston guy wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:23 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:31 pm
piston guy wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:56 pm
This has me thinking about a fixture to "precondition" toilet paper. :wink:
Why would you want to wipe with pre sh!tted tp?
Same reason someone would run rings that were "pre lapped" to a different cylinder than they were to be used in.
I always thought that rings are lapped inside of a cylinder that's the diameter they are made to fit when they are manufactured anyway.

In-Tech
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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by In-Tech » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:40 pm

I thought the whole idea of what DV was doing was to take a block you are going to use, and the pistons/rings you are going to use, and rotate the assembly at a slow speed to "burnish"(for a lesser word), then disassemble/clean, and put the rest of your assembly together after.

To me it seems like a waste of time as I do that with some of my assemblies. Disassemble, clean the bores and brakekleen and blow the pistons and reassemble. In an assembly line DV's method might be a reasonable step. Not knocking it at all, just doesn't seem like a job shop could take advantage of this idea.
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by GARY C » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:45 pm

In-Tech wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:40 pm
I thought the whole idea of what DV was doing was to take a block you are going to use, and the pistons/rings you are going to use, and rotate the assembly at a slow speed to "burnish"(for a lesser word), then disassemble/clean, and put the rest of your assembly together after.

To me it seems like a waste of time as I do that with some of my assemblies. Disassemble, clean the bores and brakekleen and blow the pistons and reassemble. In an assembly line DV's method might be a reasonable step. Not knocking it at all, just doesn't seem like a job shop could take advantage of this idea.
Yes it would seem more feasible if it could be used to prepare the block for the rings as Grumpy and others have done over the years by dynoing the engine and then changing rings for an extra 5 horse but I don't know if that is even necessary with modern day thinner rings.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by Mark O'Neal » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:44 pm

In-Tech wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:40 pm
I thought the whole idea of what DV was doing was to take a block you are going to use, and the pistons/rings you are going to use, and rotate the assembly at a slow speed to "burnish"(for a lesser word), then disassemble/clean, and put the rest of your assembly together after.

To me it seems like a waste of time as I do that with some of my assemblies. Disassemble, clean the bores and brakekleen and blow the pistons and reassemble. In an assembly line DV's method might be a reasonable step. Not knocking it at all, just doesn't seem like a job shop could take advantage of this idea.
I was with ya....until it got to the "blow the pistons" part.......

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by In-Tech » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:24 pm

Hehe, Mark. The air compressor and the cleaning was not meant to be anywhere close to the girls at sema ;) lmfao
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by sanfordandson » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:20 pm

David Vizard wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:17 pm
sanfordandson wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:35 pm
David Vizard wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:08 pm
For example the initial turning torque my 383 Chevy short block builds usually runs around 18-20 lbs-ft when done in a conventional fashion. P
This seems high. Are you using a thick ring pack?

The 383's I've done measure about 10 lbs-ft
1/16 -1/16 - 3/16 with finish as per ring manufacturers and it's about what you are getting done my way for a street build. My cup car motor turned at about 6 lbs-ft but it gets difficult to be precise here as I don't have a torque wrench that would read accurately at this low figure.
DV
Makes sense. Most of the stuff i do is .043 .043 3mm or 1mm 1mm 2mm

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by Mark O'Neal » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:22 am

Most OTS pistons are moving to 1.5 1.5 3.0 (on small blocks) with .145 radial width rings.

Drag numbers should be way down.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by David Vizard » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:14 pm

Mark O'Neal wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:22 am
Most OTS pistons are moving to 1.5 1.5 3.0 (on small blocks) with .145 radial width rings.

Drag numbers should be way down.
As a point of interest Mahle has started to offer catalog pistons with 1.0/1.0/3.0 mm rings.An example is the latest Ford/Chevy 4 inch bore stuff.
Turnin g torque on this is measurable lower than 1/16-1/6-3/16th stuff.

DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by sanfordandson » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:17 pm

David Vizard wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:14 pm
Mark O'Neal wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:22 am
Most OTS pistons are moving to 1.5 1.5 3.0 (on small blocks) with .145 radial width rings.

Drag numbers should be way down.
As a point of interest Mahle has started to offer catalog pistons with 1.0/1.0/3.0 mm rings.An example is the latest Ford/Chevy 4 inch bore stuff.
Turnin g torque on this is measurable lower than 1/16-1/6-3/16th stuff.

DV
I've used the mahle 1mm 1mm 2mm ring pack shelf pistons on sbcs for a few years now. Very nice setup. I see some others are offering it now.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by Mark O'Neal » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:45 am

David Vizard wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:14 pm
Mark O'Neal wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:22 am
Most OTS pistons are moving to 1.5 1.5 3.0 (on small blocks) with .145 radial width rings.

Drag numbers should be way down.
As a point of interest Mahle has started to offer catalog pistons with 1.0/1.0/3.0 mm rings.An example is the latest Ford/Chevy 4 inch bore stuff.
Turnin g torque on this is measurable lower than 1/16-1/6-3/16th stuff.

DV
The benefits are certainly there, as long as the ring seal and the rings control oil. But I think Mahle being a ring manufacturer is the foundation of that. Some of the companies have a decent factory deal that would seem to allow it, from a cost standpoint, but certainly don't have the flexibility that Mahle has.

A lot of what factories do is fashion and marketing as much as it is technology.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by Mark O'Neal » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 am

sanfordandson wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:17 pm
David Vizard wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:14 pm
Mark O'Neal wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:22 am
Most OTS pistons are moving to 1.5 1.5 3.0 (on small blocks) with .145 radial width rings.

Drag numbers should be way down.
As a point of interest Mahle has started to offer catalog pistons with 1.0/1.0/3.0 mm rings.An example is the latest Ford/Chevy 4 inch bore stuff.
Turnin g torque on this is measurable lower than 1/16-1/6-3/16th stuff.

DV
I've used the mahle 1mm 1mm 2mm ring pack shelf pistons on sbcs for a few years now. Very nice setup. I see some others are offering it now.
I think it's a great idea, but at 190.00 for a set of moly rings it would be a hard sell to most of my customers.....and no sale to theirs. On top of that the steel top ring sets cost more than a set of rods. (that's a joke for those that can't tell)

I'm using 1.5 1.5 3.0 on the 4" bore stuff because the price point is far lower. You don't get the whole benefit, but it's far better than the 1/16 1/16 3.0 .195 radial width stuff, with the radial reduced to .145.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by sanfordandson » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:09 am

Mark O'Neal wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 am
I think it's a great idea, but at 190.00 for a set of moly rings it would be a hard sell to most of my customers.....and no sale to theirs. On top of that the steel top ring sets cost more than a set of rods. (that's a joke for those that can't tell)

I'm using 1.5 1.5 3.0 on the 4" bore stuff because the price point is far lower. You don't get the whole benefit, but it's far better than the 1/16 1/16 3.0 .195 radial width stuff, with the radial reduced to .145.
Ive been getting the mahle rings for around 170 a set in the 1mm size. I didnt think that was bad at all. I'm going to try the CP bullet line this winter in a few motors. 1mm, 1mm, 2mm ring pack, last ported lightweight flat tops for $720 a set with rings. IIRC the mahles were closer to $800.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by David Vizard » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:30 am

sanfordandson wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:09 am
Mark O'Neal wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:53 am
I think it's a great idea, but at 190.00 for a set of moly rings it would be a hard sell to most of my customers.....and no sale to theirs. On top of that the steel top ring sets cost more than a set of rods. (that's a joke for those that can't tell)

I'm using 1.5 1.5 3.0 on the 4" bore stuff because the price point is far lower. You don't get the whole benefit, but it's far better than the 1/16 1/16 3.0 .195 radial width stuff, with the radial reduced to .145.
Ive been getting the mahle rings for around 170 a set in the 1mm size. I didnt think that was bad at all. I'm going to try the CP bullet line this winter in a few motors. 1mm, 1mm, 2mm ring pack, last ported lightweight flat tops for $720 a set with rings. IIRC the mahles were closer to $800.
Hey - young Sandford that was a red hot post from you for me. I had not looked at CP stuff for a few years now and had lost track of what they were up to lately. Thanks for the speed tip there.

DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

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Re: 8.1 inch rod in stock block/stroke 350 and -----

Post by pdq67 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:11 am

I haven't read the complete thread so David, just how are you installing an 8.1" long rod in a 350" SBC engine??

Curious minds want to know!

In the other thread about the big pistons, I have asked how much can the Dart block that will bore to 4.25" be offset bored for max. dia. cylinders"

pdq67

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