Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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jtb032295
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Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by jtb032295 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:38 pm

Hey guys/gals.. To make a long story short, I'm helping build a new engine for a dirt modified (emod). Cast iron block is practically the only rule.. No compression rules, no cam rules.. 8" Hoosier tire allowed. I'm looking to build an affordable engine that has the capability of being competitive. The driver is new this year but it is obvious the current 358 is not enough..

I'm in a bit of a debate about what to build.. An aftermarket block is out of the budget for next year.. Thinking of a 388 or 406.. A 6.0L seems like an affordable solution but the accessories (new water pump, MSD, belt fuel pump, intake, etc) make it seem pricey.

Help please....

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by ZIGGY » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:53 pm

Not to be rude here, but "...is practically the only rule" and "capability of being competitive" seem to conflict
with "affordable" and "pricey". Often said, bears repeating: "Cheap, fast, reliable. Pick any two".

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by MTENGINES » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:56 pm

jtb032295 wrote:Hey guys/gals.. To make a long story short, I'm helping build a new engine for a dirt modified (emod). Cast iron block is practically the only rule.. No compression rules, no cam rules.. 8" Hoosier tire allowed. I'm looking to build an affordable engine that has the capability of being competitive. The driver is new this year but it is obvious the current 358 is not enough..

I'm in a bit of a debate about what to build.. An aftermarket block is out of the budget for next year.. Thinking of a 388 or 406.. A 6.0L seems like an affordable solution but the accessories (new water pump, MSD, belt fuel pump, intake, etc) make it seem pricey.

Help please....
I would say LS hands down will be more reliable and the torque curve can be made very smooth. The 55 mm can and light valvetrain am LS has makes it hands down my favorite of your choices.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by jtb032295 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:21 pm

ZIGGY wrote:Not to be rude here, but "...is practically the only rule" and "capability of being competitive" seem to conflict
with "affordable" and "pricey". Often said, bears repeating: "Cheap, fast, reliable. Pick any two".

Point taken haha.. There really aren't any other rules around these areas.. ARMA rules for the most part which hardly limit the engine package. By "capable of being competitive" I mean exactly that. The driver, at this point, is not capable of being competitive, so I don't expect even the greatest engine to fix that. That'll take seat time and practice but when he is capable, I hope the engine will also be. The budget is limited but not extremely. Mainly, an aftermarket block is not in the budget. Sorry for being vague, this is just the start of this project and trying to get a grasp on what we want to build.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by jtb032295 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:28 pm

MTENGINES wrote:
jtb032295 wrote:Hey guys/gals.. To make a long story short, I'm helping build a new engine for a dirt modified (emod). Cast iron block is practically the only rule.. No compression rules, no cam rules.. 8" Hoosier tire allowed. I'm looking to build an affordable engine that has the capability of being competitive. The driver is new this year but it is obvious the current 358 is not enough..

I'm in a bit of a debate about what to build.. An aftermarket block is out of the budget for next year.. Thinking of a 388 or 406.. A 6.0L seems like an affordable solution but the accessories (new water pump, MSD, belt fuel pump, intake, etc) make it seem pricey.

Help please....
I would say LS hands down will be more reliable and the torque curve can be made very smooth. The 55 mm can and light valvetrain am LS has makes it hands down my favorite of your choices.

I'm pretty familiar and a big fan of the LS series.. I really would like to go that route. The LS build may be able to make the budget if the stock bottom end components (besides rod bolts) could be used at 6800rpm or so, at least for one season.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by ProPower engines » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:23 am

jtb032295 wrote:Hey guys/gals.. To make a long story short, I'm helping build a new engine for a dirt modified (emod). Cast iron block is practically the only rule.. No compression rules, no cam rules.. 8" Hoosier tire allowed. I'm looking to build an affordable engine that has the capability of being competitive. The driver is new this year but it is obvious the current 358 is not enough..

I'm in a bit of a debate about what to build.. An aftermarket block is out of the budget for next year.. Thinking of a 388 or 406.. A 6.0L seems like an affordable solution but the accessories (new water pump, MSD, belt fuel pump, intake, etc) make it seem pricey.

Help please....

So,
you want to build an unlimited style engine using a stock iron block but you have no idea what you really want to end up with??

Let's get serious now you state you have a rookie driver so is all you really need is a decent engine to get started with??
Or would you like to build the best you can afford and work with then driver and improve the power as the driver gets better?

The real question is how much do you have or are willing to spend??
These questions will determine what you build and where you spend on power versus durability and vice versa .

What blocks do you have available to start with> 350 or 400??
What are you willing to turn the engine up to to win?

What do you have for fuel system. Gas or alky components??
What other specific components do you have like heads intakes exhaust etc

My guess is a basic engine to run in a class with almost no engine rules is $10,000 thats without accessories like fuel system and ignition.
is there going to be any engine claiming allowed?
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by gvx » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:23 am

You may want to consider another class if your budget is not there. To be competitive like above said starts @ $10,000. Likely the top 3 may be spending near $30,000 on there engine package.
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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by jtb032295 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:10 am

I would like to build the best engine the team can afford and work on improving the power later, as the driver is able to use more.. Remember these are only 8' tire rules. We currently have a 358 in the car that the driver is learning with but it is obvious that this engine will not be enough to keep up with the field.. It's a low buck, street stock build from previous years of racing..

As far as the new build:

I have many 350 blocks to work with, no 400.

7500 at the end of the straightaway seems to get cars around the local tracks pretty well.

There are heavily ported Sportsman IIs on the car now. No flow numbers but I plan to have them flow tested shortly. Willing to purchase new heads if necessary.

Best intake that we currently have is a Super Victor, as cast.

Headers are taken care of, we have a few sets to work with on a SBC.

We have gas and some alky components. E85 is currently being used in the car.

Thanks for the help guys, I know posts like this are hard to deal with.. I didn't wanta be that guy but I need some direction..

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by mag2555 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:28 am

I would run the smaller cid motor just for the sake of the driver, give him the experience / time of dealing with that amount of Torque and making the most of that before trying to handle even more power smoothly!

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by cgarb » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:43 am

Go 383 and methanol. The methanol and extra cubes should get your torque up and hope the driver can learn to work the gas pedal effectively.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by Racing68 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:15 am

First question i ask a customer is "What is your budget?" after that is known then work up a build within that range.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by Ron E » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:03 am

jtb032295 wrote:
ZIGGY wrote: By "capable of being competitive" I mean exactly that. The driver, at this point, is not capable of being competitive, so I don't expect even the greatest engine to fix that. .
Around here every driver is great, and every car is the best. Only the lack of power is between them and the hall of fame.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by statsystems » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:39 am

Ron E wrote:
jtb032295 wrote:
ZIGGY wrote: By "capable of being competitive" I mean exactly that. The driver, at this point, is not capable of being competitive, so I don't expect even the greatest engine to fix that. .
Around here every driver is great, and every car is the best. Only the lack of power is between them and the hall of fame.

Ain't that the truth!!!! Too funny!!!!

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by tresi » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:46 pm

You say that you can't afford an aftermarket block, no sin there. You also say the rules are wide open and you ae running a set of Sportsman II's. You are in a bad spot. It's going to take more money than an aftermarket block to change over to an LS motor and it's also going to take too much money to put competitive heads and intake on it. The only moves that sense is to rebuild what you have and be a also ran while your driver gets experience or move down a class or two.

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Re: Circle track 388 vs. 406 vs. 6.0L

Post by ProPower engines » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:53 pm

[quote="jtb032295"]I would like to build the best engine the team can afford and work on improving the power later, as the driver is able to use more.. Remember these are only 8' tire rules. We currently have a 358 in the car that the driver is learning with but it is obvious that this engine will not be enough to keep up with the field.. It's a low buck, street stock build from previous years of racing..

As far as the new build:

I have many 350 blocks to work with, no 400.

You have not answered the big picture question.

What is the budget you have to work with???
Till we know it's a waste of time.
And those 8" tires with the right set up will work better then most believe been there done that and if you are looking for 7500 rpm at the end of the chute that tells me there is some serious competitors in this class.
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