SBF clarification please!

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Walter R. Malik
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:54 am

427 cubic inch WINDSOR engines are pretty common place these days ... Ford Racing even sells several outfitted "crate" motors like that ... even a 460 Windsor "crate" engine is available.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by rmyauck » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:23 pm

Hot Rod magazine said years ago that the 87-93 302 block used in Mustangs & Lincoln's had a better alloy (maybe more Ni etc.) for more strength and they used forged pistons till 92, with the 93 's getting Hypereutectic pistons. I do believe one of the aftermarket block maker makes an LS engine with Cleveland 2.75 mains also!

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by In-Tech » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:51 pm

Considering I know very little about Ford Blocks as well, maybe one of the Ford guys here could post the v-8 block sizes, like Bore, Deck Height, maybe Main Bore. That would sure be helpful. [-o<
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cab0154 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:03 pm

rmyauck wrote:Hot Rod magazine said years ago that the 87-93 302 block used in Mustangs & Lincoln's had a better alloy (maybe more Ni etc.) for more strength and they used forged pistons till 92, with the 93 's getting Hypereutectic pistons. I do believe one of the aftermarket block maker makes an LS engine with Cleveland 2.75 mains also!
a few years ago someone tested the metallurgy of an early block vs a late model and I believe they put the nickel content myth to rest. the forged piston were until mid 92, after that they ran hypereutectic. if its a stock shortbock that's never been apart you can tell without tearing into it by the oil pan color. the forged piston engines had a grey pan that matched the paint on the block. the hypereutectic engines had black oil pans.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cab0154 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:11 pm

In-Tech wrote:Considering I know very little about Ford Blocks as well, maybe one of the Ford guys here could post the v-8 block sizes, like Bore, Deck Height, maybe Main Bore. That would sure be helpful. [-o<
ok. for Windsor class (8.2 and 9.5) and Cleveland/modified they are 4.38 bore centers.

for windsors: the 8.2 uses a 2.25" main, the 351w uses a 3"
8.2 deck: the 221 was 3.500x2.87, (the smogger 255 of the late 70s was 3.68x3.00), the 260 was 3.800x2.87, the 289 was 4.00x2.87 and the 302 was 4.0x3.0. up until about 64 during the 289s they were 5 bolt bellhousing blocks. then they started making the 289s and all the 302s were 6 bolt bellhousings.
9.48/9.5 deck 351w was 4.00x3.50.

the Cleveland was 4.00x3.50 also, with a 9.2 deck and 2.75" mains. the modifieds were kind of a hodgepodge which used 3" mains. the 351m I think was a 9.2 deck also, the 400m was a tall deck 351m, I think 10 or 10.2 deck height.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:31 pm

cab0154 wrote:
In-Tech wrote:Considering I know very little about Ford Blocks as well, maybe one of the Ford guys here could post the v-8 block sizes, like Bore, Deck Height, maybe Main Bore. That would sure be helpful. [-o<
ok. for Windsor class (8.2 and 9.5) and Cleveland/modified they are 4.38 bore centers.

for windsors: the 8.2 uses a 2.25" main, the 351w uses a 3"
8.2 deck: the 221 was 3.500x2.87, (the smogger 255 of the late 70s was 3.68x3.00), the 260 was 3.800x2.87, the 289 was 4.00x2.87 and the 302 was 4.0x3.0. up until about 64 during the 289s they were 5 bolt bellhousing blocks. then they started making the 289s and all the 302s were 6 bolt bellhousings.
9.48/9.5 deck 351w was 4.00x3.50.

the Cleveland was 4.00x3.50 also, with a 9.2 deck and 2.75" mains. the modifieds were kind of a hodgepodge which used 3" mains. the 351m I think was a 9.2 deck also, the 400m was a tall deck 351m, I think 10 or 10.2 deck height.
All modifieds, 351M/400, had 460 bell-housing bolt patterns and were the same deck dimension = 10.292" / 10.302"
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:33 pm

double post
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Joe-71 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:08 pm

I am surprised no one actually mentioned that all the SBF Windsor style engines have inline valves, and thermostat housing in intake manifold, whereas the Cleveland engines have canted valves, thermostat in block, and dry intake manifold with the exception of the Boss 302, which has a thermostat in the intake manifold and water passages for that manifold. The 5.8W was produced up until 1995 in Broncos, vans, trucks, and 5.0 to 2001. Joe-71

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:28 am

Joe-71 wrote: I am surprised no one actually mentioned that all the SBF Windsor style engines have inline valves, and thermostat housing in intake manifold, whereas the Cleveland engines have canted valves, thermostat in block, and dry intake manifold with the exception of the Boss 302, which has a thermostat in the intake manifold and water passages for that manifold. The 5.8W was produced up until 1995 in Broncos, vans, trucks, and 5.0 to 2001. Joe-71
What year were the 1999 & 2000 Explorers with the 5.8 liter engine manufactured ...?
Did they make them ahead of time in 1995 and store them all somewhere ...?

Production of the 5.8L, 351 Windsor engine continued well past the year 1995 and that engine even continued to be used-up by Ford of Australia for a couple more years after 2000.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by BobbyB » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:41 pm

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think the block deck heights were increased to lower compression from about 1972 to 1980 on the 302 and 351. Anyone know the details?

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by DaveMcLain » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:07 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
cab0154 wrote:
In-Tech wrote:Considering I know very little about Ford Blocks as well, maybe one of the Ford guys here could post the v-8 block sizes, like Bore, Deck Height, maybe Main Bore. That would sure be helpful. [-o<
ok. for Windsor class (8.2 and 9.5) and Cleveland/modified they are 4.38 bore centers.

for windsors: the 8.2 uses a 2.25" main, the 351w uses a 3"
8.2 deck: the 221 was 3.500x2.87, (the smogger 255 of the late 70s was 3.68x3.00), the 260 was 3.800x2.87, the 289 was 4.00x2.87 and the 302 was 4.0x3.0. up until about 64 during the 289s they were 5 bolt bellhousing blocks. then they started making the 289s and all the 302s were 6 bolt bellhousings.
9.48/9.5 deck 351w was 4.00x3.50.

the Cleveland was 4.00x3.50 also, with a 9.2 deck and 2.75" mains. the modifieds were kind of a hodgepodge which used 3" mains. the 351m I think was a 9.2 deck also, the 400m was a tall deck 351m, I think 10 or 10.2 deck height.
All modifieds, 351M/400, had 460 bell-housing bolt patterns and were the same deck dimension = 10.292" / 10.302"
Except for those weird blocks that had both the big 429/460 bell housing AND the 6 bolt standard small block pattern. I've never seen one of those in person but I wonder what they were built to serve?

Ford did increase the nominal deck heights on the blocks in the '70's. 1969 or so era Windsor blocks are 9.480 nominal deck height and they might range all the way up to 9.510 or so nominal on some blocks from the late '70's.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by nickpohlaandp » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:58 pm

So many variations with deck heights, bellhousing patterns, different blocks... makes my head hurt. There's no doubt that you can make good power with a Ford based mill, but I expect that the seemingly endless variations even within the same engine family are why so many people choose to build Chevy vs. Ford. There's more parts interchangeability and it's cheaper.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by nickpohlaandp » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Oh, I found this illustration too. I figured I'd post it up in case anyone else was having the same rod ratio/dwell time questions I had. It might help a little

Also on Google I found a post on ST from about 8 years ago talking about a very similar subject.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by DaveMcLain » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:31 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:So many variations with deck heights, bellhousing patterns, different blocks... makes my head hurt. There's no doubt that you can make good power with a Ford based mill, but I expect that the seemingly endless variations even within the same engine family are why so many people choose to build Chevy vs. Ford. There's more parts interchangeability and it's cheaper.
A Chevy V8 has plenty of weird unexplained changes too. For instance; the dip stick changes from the left side to the right side in about 1981, why?

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by nickpohlaandp » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:45 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:So many variations with deck heights, bellhousing patterns, different blocks... makes my head hurt. There's no doubt that you can make good power with a Ford based mill, but I expect that the seemingly endless variations even within the same engine family are why so many people choose to build Chevy vs. Ford. There's more parts interchangeability and it's cheaper.
A Chevy V8 has plenty of weird unexplained changes too. For instance; the dip stick changes from the left side to the right side in about 1981, why?
Change in dipstick location isn't nearly as critical as the potential for one small block head fitting another. Of course you could make this mistake by trying to put some quality aftermarket heads on a 305 Chevy, but with Ford it seems you might be ok with the heads but later find out you're screwed on the bellhouding pattern. Too many variables
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