SBF clarification please!

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by nickpohlaandp » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:40 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:So what are the blocks I've heard about "splitting" when you lean on em too hard? Like I said, I've never seen it, but I've heard about it a lot. And how are they splitting? Is it like the block just breaks in half?
The 5.0L engines which came with torque to yield head bolts, light weight crankshafts, and 50 in/oz counterbalance were internally lightened and reduced their strength greatly.

Splits right up the main webs through the camshaft oiling passage; in half. The timing cover and bellhousing are holding it together.
Well that would certainly put a damper on your night at the strip. I guess for big hp SBF you'd need something along the lines of a Dart block and a bucket full of boost?
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Walter R. Malik » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:41 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:Just looked on Summit and for Windsor blocks they only show 3, all made by DSS. The Cleveland seems to Have more options through Dart.
DART does NOT make a CLEVELAND block. They make a WINDSOR block with Cleveland main bores in both 9.5" and 9.2" deck heights.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by nickpohlaandp » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:51 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote: DART does NOT make a CLEVELAND block. They make a WINDSOR block with Cleveland main bores in both 9.5" and 9.2" deck heights.
I'll take your word for it. I believe I started this thread by stating in a long winded manner that I don't know jack about a SBF. I just went to Summit and searched for engine blocks. When you drop down the selection for Ford it gives you the option for Cleveland and Small Block Windsor. If you choose Cleveland it's all Dart blocks that show up.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cab0154 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:56 pm

also, the Cleveland and modifieds were considered 335 series not Windsor family. the 9.5 deck 351w has thicker mains than the typical 8.2 289/302. also, the due to main diameter differences the 351w has much larger main caps than the 8.2 302 and thus doesn't have the cap walk issues that the 2 bolt 302 does. this excessive cap chatter is what helps crack the thinner main 302 blocks

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:06 pm

cab0154 wrote:also, the Cleveland and modifieds were considered 335 series not Windsor family. the 9.5 deck 351w has thicker mains than the typical 8.2 289/302. also, the due to main diameter differences the 351w has much larger main caps than the 8.2 302 and thus doesn't have the cap walk issues that the 2 bolt 302 does. this excessive cap chatter is what helps crack the thinner main 302 blocks
No the paper thin castings make the later block crack, they still crack with good caps, main girdle and a bucket of grout in them!
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:06 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
nickpohlaandp wrote:Just looked on Summit and for Windsor blocks they only show 3, all made by DSS. The Cleveland seems to Have more options through Dart.
DART does NOT make a CLEVELAND block. They make a WINDSOR block with Cleveland main bores in both 9.5" and 9.2" deck heights.
Beat me to it Walter!
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by plovett » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:08 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
peejay wrote:
Technically technically the 351W stopped production in '78 or so, too. But that is really splitting hairs, here.
The 351 WINDSOR V-8 engine continued to be produced right through the 2000 year production AS the 351 WINDSOR engine later having fuel injection in light trucks. The first "Lightning" pick-up was a 351 Windsor and the 1993 COBRA MUSTANG was a 351 Windsor.

In 1993 the block was internally changed some to eliminate some girth and add the ability to use O.E.M production hydraulic roller cams and lifters.

I don't know where your "technically" comes from but, you are technically wrong.
Technically the 1993 Cobra Mustang had a 302, not a 351 Windsor.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by MasterUMC » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:14 pm

The 302 (8.2 deck height) came in a few race versions as well.. from ford..

The boss - 4 bolt block.
The A4 - 4 bolt block
The R302 - 4 bolt block
The sportsman B50 - 2 bolt block (stronger iron)
The "Mexico" - 2 bolt block (early 70's)(supposed better iron, I cant verify that, never had one in my possession)
I believe the B50 and Mex blocks are based off of the Hi-Po 289 block..

The A4, R302 and B50 all share what ford calls (Diesel Grade iron) I''ve worked with these blocks and they are considerably harder iron than the late model 5.0 blocks.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cab0154 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:54 am

cjperformance wrote:
cab0154 wrote:also, the Cleveland and modifieds were considered 335 series not Windsor family. the 9.5 deck 351w has thicker mains than the typical 8.2 289/302. also, the due to main diameter differences the 351w has much larger main caps than the 8.2 302 and thus doesn't have the cap walk issues that the 2 bolt 302 does. this excessive cap chatter is what helps crack the thinner main 302 blocks
No the paper thin castings make the later block crack, they still crack with good caps, main girdle and a bucket of grout in them!
I haven't had any simply crack without cap walk in the past 20+ years. when the caps are dancing because you are trying to push the mains out from cylinder pressure or too much rpm with the little caps bad things happen. the original boss 302 didn't suffer the cracking problem as badly because even though the outside bolt were not splayed, it had dowels between the bolts so the caps didn't dance. but I have seen cracked 2 bolt 289 blocks, early 302 blocks, 'sportsman' 302 blocks, Mexican 302 blocks just like late model castings that were marginally thinner. yet the early boss 302 barely ever cracks and the main thickness in those sure looks like a Mexican/sportsman/early 302/289 and stock Windsor to me. I believe the thinner mains in the late 302s make it easier for them to crack, but having run a lot of them all the 2 bolt 8.2 stuff crack and chatter. have run some stock, undesireable early 80s Windsor blocks to 9k with barely any cap walk after hundreds of passes, yet a 7500 rpm 28oz NA 347 with an early 302 block will etch the cap/block mating surface completely black due to chatter with the small 302 caps after maybe 100 passes, if that.
Last edited by cab0154 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:42 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by nickpohlaandp » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:14 am

Everyone has been very informative in this thread. I really appreciate it. I'm also glad I purchased the "beginner" SBF book. I'll look into a "modding" book once I get a good grasp on the basics.

Where this is all coming from, in case anyone is wondering, is I've decided that I'm going to remain undecided on my powerplant until the car is ready for one. I've got a lot of fab work to do, and I'm not going to rush through it just to get it on the road. Whenever I do give it a heart, I want to know that the chassis is ready for whatever I throw at it.
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by cab0154 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:48 am

plovett wrote:
Walter R. Malik wrote:
peejay wrote:
Technically technically the 351W stopped production in '78 or so, too. But that is really splitting hairs, here.
The 351 WINDSOR V-8 engine continued to be produced right through the 2000 year production AS the 351 WINDSOR engine later having fuel injection in light trucks. The first "Lightning" pick-up was a 351 Windsor and the 1993 COBRA MUSTANG was a 351 Windsor.

In 1993 the block was internally changed some to eliminate some girth and add the ability to use O.E.M production hydraulic roller cams and lifters.

I don't know where your "technically" comes from but, you are technically wrong.
Technically the 1993 Cobra Mustang had a 302, not a 351 Windsor.
yep, the 93 cobra, 93 r, 94 cobra, and 95 cobra were all 302s. the 95r had the 351w. you can drive a 95r like its a cummins. every time I drive #7 I cant believe it was a $35k car in '95. its almost comical.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by peejay » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:28 am

Walter R. Malik wrote:
peejay wrote:
Technically technically the 351W stopped production in '78 or so, too. But that is really splitting hairs, here.
The 351 WINDSOR V-8 engine continued to be produced right through the 2000 year production AS the 351 WINDSOR engine later having fuel injection in light trucks. The first "Lightning" pick-up was a 351 Windsor and the 1993 COBRA MUSTANG was a 351 Windsor.

In 1993 the block was internally changed some to eliminate some girth and add the ability to use O.E.M production hydraulic roller cams and lifters.

I don't know where your "technically" comes from but, you are technically wrong.
When Ford went from the 351W-specific intake bolt pattern to using the same heads as the 302, they changed the internal designation away from 351W to something else. 351K, I think.

Auto manufacturers seem to do a lot of that sort of thing - change an engine's name internally, then ignoring that name change a few years later. Mazda did it in 1974 when they redesigned the 12A engine in 1974. Internal documents called the redesigned engine the "12B". They still cast 12A on the engine parts, and after a few years, you never heard about the "12B" again...

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by DaveMcLain » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:13 am

The changes to the valvetrain in the small Ford engines can be an interesting story in and of itself. The early Windsor style engines all used an adjustable stud mount rocker valvetrain that's very similar to a small block Chevy except for having a cast rocker arm. Some time during the 1966 production they changed to the "rail" type rocker that is guided by the valve stem and the holes in the heads were drilled round instead of being slotted. With this change the valves themselves also were changed to have a longer tip. Also some time in there the pushrods were changed from a hardened type to non hardened because they didn't have to rub against the head to guide them. Always test the pushrods using a file if you're planning to re use them any you change to a guide plate or the older style head. Otherwise they won't last more than an hour.

A few years ago I had a '66 289 come through for a Mustang resto/mod build. That engine had one head with the rail type rockers and one head with the pushrod guided ones. The owner of the engine insisted that he had owned the car since it was new and that the engine had NEVER been apart. Who knows how it got that way... I had always believed that '65 was the last year for the old style rockers and that the rail type started in '66. Yet since that time I've seen a few other '66 engines with '66 date coded castings made with the older style rockers. I believe that the stock pushrod length also changes at this time.

Some time in 1969 production Ford went to the "bottle neck" style of stud with a 5/16 nut that just gets tightened down and isn't adjustable. I think that all 351 Windsor engines were built that way until 1978 when the pedestal mount rockers were introduced on the Windsor style engines. Again at this time I think the stock pushrod length changes.

289 engines had different diameter valve springs depending on the carburetor they came with. 2 barrel engines used a smaller spring and retainer and a small Chevy spring can be used pretty easily. 4 barrel engines used a larger diameter spring and the HP 289 also used a different larger diameter spring and a different retainer. It also had a different head casting that was made with a cast in spring seat. Otherwise it is identical to other 289 heads.

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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:30 am

plovett wrote:
Walter R. Malik wrote:
peejay wrote:
Technically technically the 351W stopped production in '78 or so, too. But that is really splitting hairs, here.
The 351 WINDSOR V-8 engine continued to be produced right through the 2000 year production AS the 351 WINDSOR engine later having fuel injection in light trucks. The first "Lightning" pick-up was a 351 Windsor and the 1993 COBRA MUSTANG was a 351 Windsor.

In 1993 the block was internally changed some to eliminate some girth and add the ability to use O.E.M production hydraulic roller cams and lifters.

I don't know where your "technically" comes from but, you are technically wrong.
Technically the 1993 Cobra Mustang had a 302, not a 351 Windsor.
It might have been 94 or 95 but, the point is that it is certainly after 1978. (if you wish to nit-pick the year, then go right ahead).
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Re: SBF clarification please!

Post by plovett » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:48 am

Walter R. Malik wrote:
plovett wrote:
Walter R. Malik wrote:
The 351 WINDSOR V-8 engine continued to be produced right through the 2000 year production AS the 351 WINDSOR engine later having fuel injection in light trucks. The first "Lightning" pick-up was a 351 Windsor and the 1993 COBRA MUSTANG was a 351 Windsor.

In 1993 the block was internally changed some to eliminate some girth and add the ability to use O.E.M production hydraulic roller cams and lifters.

I don't know where your "technically" comes from but, you are technically wrong.
Technically the 1993 Cobra Mustang had a 302, not a 351 Windsor.
It might have been 94 or 95 but, the point is that it is certainly after 1978. (if you wish to nit-pick the year, then go right ahead).
Just giving you a hard time. I know you can take it. I put a 351W together a few years ago and I used a 1983 block. So yes, it is way after 1978 that Ford stopped making 351W's. Maybe the poster is thinking of the Ford FE? I think 1978 was the last year for the FE in Ford trucks.

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