Race Engine Challenge

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Locked
Rick360
Expert
Expert
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Rick360 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:44 pm

David Vizard wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:50 pm
I have had many people ask me why I don't enter the EMC and the simple truth is I am up to my ears in stuff that is more race then EMC material.

Add to that the cost - to do the job in sufficient detail to have a chance at winning is probably about $50,000 (I have heard of figs as high as $75,000). I am a one man business. In my shop I do everything including scrubbing the floor.If I am working on an engine that would have only minimal to do with my business then I would most likely starve before it was all over.
That's a nice looking engine, but it doesn't look like a $50,000 - $75,000 engine to me.

Rick
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

GARY C
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3688
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm

Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?

RevTheory
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2221
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:45 am

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by RevTheory » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:23 pm

Man hours porting heads for a competition that could've been spent porting heads for a customer... etc.

David Vizard
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1173
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:19 pm

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by David Vizard » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:38 pm

Rick360 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:44 pm
David Vizard wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:50 pm
I have had many people ask me why I don't enter the EMC and the simple truth is I am up to my ears in stuff that is more race then EMC material.

Add to that the cost - to do the job in sufficient detail to have a chance at winning is probably about $50,000 (I have heard of figs as high as $75,000). I am a one man business. In my shop I do everything including scrubbing the floor.If I am working on an engine that would have only minimal to do with my business then I would most likely starve before it was all over.
That's a nice looking engine, but it doesn't look like a $50,000 - $75,000 engine to me.

Rick
Rick,
The cost of the motor itself probably won't amount to more than about $15,000 but The R&D costs will be substantial if an entry is made for a serious challenge of winning.
When I am working on the entry for this I am not earning a cent from clients.
DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

Old School
Pro
Pro
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:27 am

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Old School » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:11 pm

Rick,
The cost of the motor itself probably won't amount to more than about $15,000 but The R&D costs will be substantial if an entry is made for a serious challenge of winning.
When I am working on the entry for this I am not earning a cent from clients.
DV
[/quote]

Another way to look at this from an economic standpoint is how many books could you sell titled "HOW TO BUILD A WINNING ENGINE MASTERS ENGINE" ? That alone would be motivation to give it a try.

David Vizard
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1173
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:19 pm

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by David Vizard » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:39 pm

Old School wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:11 pm
Rick,
The cost of the motor itself probably won't amount to more than about $15,000 but The R&D costs will be substantial if an entry is made for a serious challenge of winning.
When I am working on the entry for this I am not earning a cent from clients.
DV
Another way to look at this from an economic standpoint is how many books could you sell titled "HOW TO BUILD A WINNING ENGINE MASTERS ENGINE" ? That alone would be motivation to give it a try.
[/quote]

Rick,
On the face of it that looks like a good idea until you look at just how many people would know what the EMC is. The number of books I would sell under that title would not earn back the time involved just writing the book and doing the artwork let alone the R&D on the engine. The only reason I have entered this Race Engine Challenge of Gregs is that it's format so far looks to falls much more inline with what I am doing in the R&D dept.

Lets just hope it stays that way.

DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

randy331
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2595
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: N.W. MO.

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:49 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:23 pm
Man hours porting heads for a competition that could've been spent porting heads for a customer... etc.
GARY C wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm
Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?
I know you guys disagree with about everything I post on this site and that's fine, that's what this site is for, so I guess we''ll just disagree on the cost too.

But think about this. Joe has 2 very good running small blocks sittin in his shop now. They are certainly worth something.
The bigger one is already headed to a dirt track car.
It paid $11,700 to win. That will go a long way towards paying for things.
That oil pan will go on my Nova. It needed one anyway.
Those headers may end up on Atrocity in my work truck, after we see what they do to Chad's SN engine.
The Braswell carb we used is Joe's dyno mule carb.
He had both cranks and one of the blocks sittin in the shop.
About the only parts that are likely to not get used again are the flat tappet cams we tested.

Right when we got back to Joe's shop a potential customer came walking in asking about engine work. It didn't hurt Joe's situation with that customer for us to walk up and hand him the trophy right in front of the guy.

And for me, there is absolutely no other way to learn what I learn on a deal like this. There's no book, no school, no seminar, to learn what I get to learn being involved with this bunch.
It ain't free but neither is flying, boating, drag racing, pulling trucks, etc. Just depends on what you what to spend your hobby money on.

Randy

Tom Walker
New Member
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:58 pm
Location: Louisville,KY

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Tom Walker » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:56 pm

The EMC is entertaining and fascinating. I applaud the school, the sponsors and especially all the participants. Thank you all for a tremendous event. Have spectated for several years and always enjoyed the show and I am continually amazed at the talent of the people and the performance of their entries that reflect that talent. Hats off to Greg for wanting to do something like he is describing.

WeingartnerRacing
Expert
Expert
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:37 pm
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by WeingartnerRacing » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:29 pm

The biggest reason most don’t enter an engine challenge is because if they do bad then all the chest pounding and tech articles come off looking fake or wrong. It takes money, time, effort, and balls to do the competition because the competition will take everything. If you can say I was wrong and that didn’t work and be okay with that then give it a go.

Rick I give you massive credit for winning. You beat bes few people have done that. I would love to come up there and chat for a bit. I feel I could learn some new new things. I can’t begin to tell you how amazed I am that you won.

Sidebar my 2014emc motor is in my drag car. I race it but it fits no class because emc rules suck. My 2012 emc motor is also in a drag truck of a customer. That motor finished sixth behind Randy.
Eric Weingartner
Weingartner Racing LLC
918-520-3480
www.wengines.com

GARY C
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3688
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:35 pm

randy331 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:49 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:23 pm
Man hours porting heads for a competition that could've been spent porting heads for a customer... etc.
GARY C wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm
Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?
I know you guys disagree with about everything I post on this site and that's fine, that's what this site is for, so I guess we''ll just disagree on the cost too.

But think about this. Joe has 2 very good running small blocks sittin in his shop now. They are certainly worth something.
The bigger one is already headed to a dirt track car.
It paid $11,700 to win. That will go a long way towards paying for things.
That oil pan will go on my Nova. It needed one anyway.
Those headers may end up on Atrocity in my work truck, after we see what they do to Chad's SN engine.
The Braswell carb we used is Joe's dyno mule carb.
He had both cranks and one of the blocks sittin in the shop.
About the only parts that are likely to not get used again are the flat tappet cams we tested.

Right when we got back to Joe's shop a potential customer came walking in asking about engine work. It didn't hurt Joe's situation with that customer for us to walk up and hand him the trophy right in front of the guy.

And for me, there is absolutely no other way to learn what I learn on a deal like this. There's no book, no school, no seminar, to learn what I get to learn being involved with this bunch.
It ain't free but neither is flying, boating, drag racing, pulling trucks, etc. Just depends on what you what to spend your hobby money on.

Randy
Randy, I only disagree with the way you guys go after DV, I will be the first to admit you guys build some very impressive engines and have proven that it is not luck but hard work and knowledge that gets you the results and having the opportunity to talk to Chad I know you guys like building engines on a budget and letting your skill make the power even though y'all could spend more $'s if you chose to. As I told Chad in text and also posted on the EMC thread I apologize for being outspoken about my feelings toward you guys in relation to DV's threads, I don't agree with it but that is between you guys and him I am staying out of it. I don't always like DV's way of posting but if you knew him you would better understand his personality, I know he is willing to speak to you and work with you personally if you or interested. He is not the confrontational type like myself.
Once again I do apologize and I look forward to your post and I do truly respect y'all s ability and knowledge of engines even if we don't always agree.

Walter R. Malik
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3460
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am
Location: Roseville, Michigan (just north of Detroit)
Contact:

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:31 am

randy331 wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:49 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:23 pm
Man hours porting heads for a competition that could've been spent porting heads for a customer... etc.
GARY C wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:12 pm
Rick, could you share with us the total cost of the "sets" of heads, all the cams, lifters, "intakes," "carbs" 100's of hours of dyno time of "both" engines plus all the misc and travel cost to get to a winning engine if a guy like me without the free access of above mentioned stuff was going to try to enter next years competition?
I know you guys disagree with about everything I post on this site and that's fine, that's what this site is for, so I guess we''ll just disagree on the cost too.

But think about this. Joe has 2 very good running small blocks sittin in his shop now. They are certainly worth something.
The bigger one is already headed to a dirt track car.
It paid $11,700 to win. That will go a long way towards paying for things.
That oil pan will go on my Nova. It needed one anyway.
Those headers may end up on Atrocity in my work truck, after we see what they do to Chad's SN engine.
The Braswell carb we used is Joe's dyno mule carb.
He had both cranks and one of the blocks sittin in the shop.
About the only parts that are likely to not get used again are the flat tappet cams we tested.

Right when we got back to Joe's shop a potential customer came walking in asking about engine work. It didn't hurt Joe's situation with that customer for us to walk up and hand him the trophy right in front of the guy.

And for me, there is absolutely no other way to learn what I learn on a deal like this. There's no book, no school, no seminar, to learn what I get to learn being involved with this bunch.

It ain't free but neither is flying, boating, drag racing, pulling trucks, etc. Just depends on what you want to spend your hobby money on.

Randy
What most people who have never been there fail to realize about a contest like that is, it is all about "what someone has done with the cards they are dealt", not just winning. Especially someone not on a big budget who tests all the rather inexpensive things within the ordinary parts to get the most from the end result.
The competitors all understand this and I just wish everyone on the outside realized it as well.

Randy ... your last paragraph is so, SO true.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.

Rick360
Expert
Expert
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Rick360 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:43 pm

WeingartnerRacing wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:29 pm
The biggest reason most don’t enter an engine challenge is because if they do bad then all the chest pounding and tech articles come off looking fake or wrong. It takes money, time, effort, and balls to do the competition because the competition will take everything. If you can say I was wrong and that didn’t work and be okay with that then give it a go.

Rick I give you massive credit for winning. You beat bes few people have done that. I would love to come up there and chat for a bit. I feel I could learn some new new things. I can’t begin to tell you how amazed I am that you won.

Sidebar my 2014emc motor is in my drag car. I race it but it fits no class because emc rules suck. My 2012 emc motor is also in a drag truck of a customer. That motor finished sixth behind Randy.
Eric,
It sounds like you are giving me too much of the credit. It was a team and the same group of guys who did it with Randy in 2011. You are right that you lay your abilities out for the world to judge when you enter a contest like this, good or bad. No other way to learn for yourself how much of what you believe is right than to compare your stuff to some of the best.

As far as the cost to compete, anything we didn't use in the final engine are spare parts for future builds, not suddenly worthless. The knowledge from the testing alone was worth the entire amount of money spent.

Rick

Amilcar
Pro
Pro
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:32 am
Location: Brazil

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Amilcar » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:49 pm

Rick/Randy,

Do you guys have used some kind of engine simulation (EA.PRO/Dynomation)to help on see some "trends" on what/how to test next?

Gregory
Member
Member
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:01 am
Location: Charlotte

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by Gregory » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:27 pm

Just a reminder to those of you new to this thread, we will be releasing our rules for the Race Engine Challenge at the PRI
show. We are a competitor to HRM/EMC (if they continue after this year) and we don't want to show "our hand" before they
announce their rules. Once our rules are out we will move fast as outlined on our website.
Also, for those who follow a contest like this we have a way for you to participate: After the rules are released, the first
100 emails sent in will have a chance to win a free engine simulation software package (EA Pro or Dynomation) by guessing
the winning score or coming closest.
In the meantime, keep your ideas coming for the www.RaceEngineChallenge.com
Greg Finnican
Charlotte, NC
704 408-7356

steve316
Pro
Pro
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: St.Joseph,mo.

Re: Race Engine Challenge

Post by steve316 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:39 am

What I don't understand is why anyone would say I can't afford to take the away from my day job to do this. Everyone has the same number of hours in a day; it is how you spend them after you get done with making a living each day. What Randy, Rick and Joe accomplished in their spare time is a fantastic accomplishment. What I am trying to say is Congratulations for a job well done. =D>

Locked