Race Engine Challenge

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby brechlrl » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:17 pm

In the early days none of the competition engines were suitable for street or racing duty. High strung and fragile, built to make a few dyno passes and that's it. As time went on PHR addressed that in a couple ways. By dividing it into 2 classes, Pro and street, and by putting heavy restrictions on the parts that could be used in a class.. I know Barry R took one of his EMC motors off the contest dyno and dropped it into his street/Strip Torino where I think it still resides. I assume Jon's Mod engine got sold to someone and probably lives in a hot Mustang somewhere.
Unlimited fuel would escalate into madness in a hurry. Nitro, Toluene, and god knows what else. One of the reasons for one fuel supplier is to move the event along, changing fuel for every competitor and flushing the system would get to be a PITA and slow down the setup time

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby nitro2 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:58 pm

plovett wrote: I think average hp is what really matters when accelerating a vehicle.



paulie


It matters, but you can have two engines with the same average HP over the same rpm range and depending on the shape of the HP curve, one will accelerate the same car with the same gearing, quicker than the other.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:05 pm

nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote: I think average hp is what really matters when accelerating a vehicle.



paulie


It matters, but you can have two engines with the same average HP over the same rpm range and depending on the shape of the HP curve, one will accelerate the same car with the same gearing, quicker than the other.


I'm definitely with you there. But now we're going to have drag race these engines with optimized gearing........

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby nitro2 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:11 pm

plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote: I think average hp is what really matters when accelerating a vehicle.



paulie


It matters, but you can have two engines with the same average HP over the same rpm range and depending on the shape of the HP curve, one will accelerate the same car with the same gearing, quicker than the other.


I'm definitely with you there. But now we're going to have drag race these engines with optimized gearing........



LOL. Could be done with the right dyno type AND the right formula to go with it.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:19 pm

nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:
It matters, but you can have two engines with the same average HP over the same rpm range and depending on the shape of the HP curve, one will accelerate the same car with the same gearing, quicker than the other.


I'm definitely with you there. But now we're going to have drag race these engines with optimized gearing........



LOL. Could be done with the right dyno type AND the right formula to go with it.


Okay, but might it depend on all sorts of other variables like the weight and drag, of the hypothetical vehicle the engine is going in? Just for starters? Also length of race (mph), traction, number of gears, etc. etc. etc.

I'm for the K.I.S.S. principle whenever possible.

JMO,

paulie

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby nitro2 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:06 pm

plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
I'm definitely with you there. But now we're going to have drag race these engines with optimized gearing........



LOL. Could be done with the right dyno type AND the right formula to go with it.


Okay, but might it depend on all sorts of other variables like the weight and drag, of the hypothetical vehicle the engine is going in? Just for starters? Also length of race (mph), traction, number of gears, etc. etc. etc.

I'm for the K.I.S.S. principle whenever possible.

JMO,

paulie



Not really. You just want to race an engine, not a car.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:31 am

nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:

LOL. Could be done with the right dyno type AND the right formula to go with it.


Okay, but might it depend on all sorts of other variables like the weight and drag, of the hypothetical vehicle the engine is going in? Just for starters? Also length of race (mph), traction, number of gears, etc. etc. etc.

I'm for the K.I.S.S. principle whenever possible.

JMO,

paulie



Not really. You just want to race an engine, not a car.


I think the point of the contest is to "race" engines.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby nitro2 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:43 am

plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
Okay, but might it depend on all sorts of other variables like the weight and drag, of the hypothetical vehicle the engine is going in? Just for starters? Also length of race (mph), traction, number of gears, etc. etc. etc.

I'm for the K.I.S.S. principle whenever possible.

JMO,

paulie



Not really. You just want to race an engine, not a car.


I think the point of the contest is to "race" engines.



Well that may be the "intended point" of the contest, but I have yet to see any EMC or other contest where an engine was effectively "raced" against the others, and for that matter precious few dyno tests from anywhere, ever, that accomplished it either.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:55 am

nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:

Not really. You just want to race an engine, not a car.


I think the point of the contest is to "race" engines.



Well that may be the "intended point" of the contest, but I have yet to see any EMC or other contest where an engine was effectively "raced" against the others, and for that matter precious few dyno tests from anywhere, ever, that accomplished it either.


Okay, well I guess you need to start your own contest where all the engines are dyno-ed, then put in the same car, with optimized gearing for each engine, and run down the track, hopefully under the same weather conditions and with identical track prep, and driven equally well. That would be cool.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby Walter R. Malik » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:08 am

plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:

Well that may be the "intended point" of the contest, but I have yet to see any EMC or other contest where an engine was effectively "raced" against the others, and for that matter precious few dyno tests from anywhere, ever, that accomplished it either.


Okay, well I guess you need to start your own contest where all the engines are dyno-ed, then put in the same car, with optimized gearing for each engine, and run down the track, hopefully under the same weather conditions and with identical track prep, and driven equally well. That would be cool.


Pretty much the same thing can be accomplished with an engine inertia dynomometer .. they can even simulate shifting gears and RPM drop.

Most are electric and around half a million dollars.
Last edited by Walter R. Malik on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:10 am

Walter R. Malik wrote:
plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:

Well that may be the "intended point" of the contest, but I have yet to see any EMC or other contest where an engine was effectively "raced" against the others, and for that matter precious few dyno tests from anywhere, ever, that accomplished it either.


Okay, well I guess you need to start your own contest where all the engines are dyno-ed, then put in the same car, with optimized gearing for each engine, and run down the track, hopefully under the same weather conditions and with identical track prep, and driven equally well. That would be cool.


Pretty much the same thing can be accomplished with an engine inertia dynomometer .. they can even simulate shifting gears and RPM drop.

Most are electric and half a million dollars.


Sounds good to me. It would be interesting for sure.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby David Redszus » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:11 pm

For the sake of progress and development, I think there should be two classes; NA and forced induction.

The competition would be to see who could develop the highest BMEP. Period. That would normalize
for size. A secondary option would be BMEP divided by rpm.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby nitro2 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:17 pm

plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
I think the point of the contest is to "race" engines.



Well that may be the "intended point" of the contest, but I have yet to see any EMC or other contest where an engine was effectively "raced" against the others, and for that matter precious few dyno tests from anywhere, ever, that accomplished it either.


Okay, well I guess you need to start your own contest where all the engines are dyno-ed, then put in the same car, with optimized gearing for each engine, and run down the track, hopefully under the same weather conditions and with identical track prep, and driven equally well. That would be cool.


LOL. What happened to the KISS principle.

Yeah an inertia dynamometer is needed, then it needs to be run the right way.
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:24 pm

nitro2 wrote:
plovett wrote:
nitro2 wrote:

Well that may be the "intended point" of the contest, but I have yet to see any EMC or other contest where an engine was effectively "raced" against the others, and for that matter precious few dyno tests from anywhere, ever, that accomplished it either.


Okay, well I guess you need to start your own contest where all the engines are dyno-ed, then put in the same car, with optimized gearing for each engine, and run down the track, hopefully under the same weather conditions and with identical track prep, and driven equally well. That would be cool.


LOL. What happened to the KISS principle.

Yeah an inertia dynamometer is needed, then it needs to be run the right way.


These are your ideas, not mine. I was just trying to be nice.

I like just averaging hp over the specified rpm range. Simple and useful.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby nitro2 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:24 pm

An inertia dynamometer with the right measurement parameter, is a lot better test than a regular dyno sweep test, and every bit as simple (assuming performed without gear changes and all that sort of thing). It's just not cheap.

That being said, one could also take a regular dyno sweep test and determine which engine would win on an inertia dyno roll on test, still keeping with the KISS principle. Just a formula, and all these contests use formulas of one sort or another to determine the winner.

Average HP is fine if there is a significant difference in average HP between 2 engines, but it's just not a good way to evaluate 2 engines that have pretty close to the same average HP.
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