Race Engine Challenge

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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RDY4WAR
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby RDY4WAR » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:48 am

Here's what I'd do for rules...

Maximum of 10:1 static compression
Maximum of 410 cubic inches
Must use a factory crankshaft
Must use a factory production block with factory cam base circle and type (no retrofit or big base circle cams)
Must use a hydraulic cam with a maximum of .550" lift as measured at the valve (cam may be custom grind)
Must use factory production iron heads with any porting or valve sizing allowed
Must use a dual plane intake with the center divider (no RPM airgap, carb spacers allowed but no more than 1" and must be divided or 4-hole)
Maximum carburetor CFM of 750
Engine must produce a minimum of 12" of vacuum at 1000 rpm idle
Fuel used will be 91 octane

Engine will be run at part throttle and full throttle with scoring for both averaged together.

I'd have fun building something for such a class. That could just be me though.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby DaveMcLain » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:35 am

RDY4WAR wrote:Here's what I'd do for rules...

Maximum of 10:1 static compression
Maximum of 410 cubic inches
Must use a factory crankshaft
Must use a factory production block with factory cam base circle and type (no retrofit or big base circle cams)
Must use a hydraulic cam with a maximum of .550" lift as measured at the valve (cam may be custom grind)
Must use factory production iron heads with any porting or valve sizing allowed
Must use a dual plane intake with the center divider (no RPM airgap, carb spacers allowed but no more than 1" and must be divided or 4-hole)
Maximum carburetor CFM of 750
Engine must produce a minimum of 12" of vacuum at 1000 rpm idle
Fuel used will be 91 octane

Engine will be run at part throttle and full throttle with scoring for both averaged together.

I'd have fun building something for such a class. That could just be me though.


A Ford Cleveland wins.

Walter R. Malik
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby Walter R. Malik » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:20 am

I said this in the other section:

I think the scoring should be "the sum of AVERAGE torque and PEAK horsepower / cubic inches" from a chosen 3,000 RPM band because it makes that peak horsepower number relevant yet still requires a good developed torque average.
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brechlrl
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby brechlrl » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:27 am

I would encourage the organizers to go back and review how the rules evolved during the time PHR ran the show..All of the same issues talked about here cropped up during those years.. No matter what rules are in place they will always favor one engine type/family/combination. When there was a spec fuel you had grenade engines that in some cases could not complete enough pulls to score before destruction. Then there was the dominance of the CHI headed Cleveland. A gap in the rules was exploited so that Mod Fords cleaned up... In every case the rule makers tried to address the previous year's dominant combo with mixed success. It is going to be real hard to come up with a rule package that makes a truly level playing field.

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby Smoke ring » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:40 am

Racing challenge site is not working for me.

Has there been clarification if the "goal of the contest" is to make the highest power possible out of a race engine and put up the largest of racing engine numbers out there for a given displacement or is the goal to put limits in areas and it be geared toward engine builder innovation and skill to work around the obstacles put in place?

Paul Rig
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby Paul Rig » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:55 am

what about a ford 2.0L NA that pumps out 310+ hp @8300rpm and has usable power @4000rpm 13-1 cr ethanol/race fuel mix.
Winner winner chicken dinner? :D

RDY4WAR
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby RDY4WAR » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:06 am

Just as a goof, do bracket dyno pulls. Maximum of 500 hp and 500 tq peak. The engine to come closest on both averaged together without one of them going over wins. It's about the only way you'd have an even playing field.

tt 383
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby tt 383 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:01 pm

brechlrl wrote:I would encourage the organizers to go back and review how the rules evolved during the time PHR ran the show..All of the same issues talked about here cropped up during those years.. No matter what rules are in place they will always favor one engine type/family/combination. When there was a spec fuel you had grenade engines that in some cases could not complete enough pulls to score before destruction. Then there was the dominance of the CHI headed Cleveland. A gap in the rules was exploited so that Mod Fords cleaned up... In every case the rule makers tried to address the previous year's dominant combo with mixed success. It is going to be real hard to come up with a rule package that makes a truly level playing field.

Just for my sake, could you be more exact on the "gap" that allowed the modulars to dominate?

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby gvx » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:03 pm

If a certain manufacturer has an unfair advantage by design in there class. Don't hold them back just level the playing field by lessening restriction on other manufacturers. In the instance of a Cleveland head allow Dodge and Chevrolet to run more competitive cylinder heads

Other aspects to the rules first would be for safety and second rules should be just to limit money from the equation. In other words money is not what it takes to win the competition. The guy with the NASCAR budget has the same chance of winning as a machine shop that has for employees.

Still yet keep the rules simple enough so innovation and creativity has the liberty to play the winning part of the competition.
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liqu
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby liqu » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:55 pm

Hi, I would like to see a limit of 365 CI, production Iron heads for the engine (and class) intended, a limit on compression (10 1/2), flat tappet of any kind (Hyd, solids or mushroom), stock rockers, any cylinder head mods, any valve, any piston, any crank or rod combo, any intake, any cam drive. This could be divided into 3 classes, 1959 and earlier, 1960 to 1970, and 1971 and up.

PS let the sbc compete with the Y Block Fords year for year

Cliff

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby plovett » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:05 pm

I like a simple average hp over the rpm range. Divide it by displacement if that is a variable. I think average hp is what really matters when accelerating a vehicle. Why make it more complicated than that? No need to muddy the waters with fancy overcomplicated formulas that try to tilt the result to one side or the other, for some purpose other than acceleration.

JMO,

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brechlrl
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby brechlrl » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:48 pm

Just for my sake, could you be more exact on the "gap" that allowed the modulars to dominate?


They did not ban OHC but set a lower size limit of 400 cubes which everybody thought would eliminate the Mod Fords.. Kaase found a way to get over 400 inches and killed the 2 valve motors.. Another team did likewise and they finished 1-2 IIRC

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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby exhaustgases » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:01 pm

RDY4WAR wrote:Here's what I'd do for rules...

Maximum of 10:1 static compression
Maximum of 410 cubic inches
Must use a factory crankshaft
Must use a factory production block with factory cam base circle and type (no retrofit or big base circle cams)
Must use a hydraulic cam with a maximum of .550" lift as measured at the valve (cam may be custom grind)
Must use factory production iron heads with any porting or valve sizing allowed
Must use a dual plane intake with the center divider (no RPM airgap, carb spacers allowed but no more than 1" and must be divided or 4-hole)
Maximum carburetor CFM of 750
Engine must produce a minimum of 12" of vacuum at 1000 rpm idle
Fuel used will be 91 octane

Engine will be run at part throttle and full throttle with scoring for both averaged together.

I'd have fun building something for such a class. That could just be me though.

Then just run in the Magazine contest they use all those restrictions.
Only restrictions that are needed is max CID or open that up and calculate HP against the CID(did I word that right).
Have certain classes to run in.
The classes will restrict the parts used.
There needs to be a class where low cost and hand made parts compete.
Its no ones business what the compression ratio is.
No rules on engine internals, only induction and heads.
No rules on what block or crankcase is used.

AMXstocker1
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby AMXstocker1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:27 pm

RDY4WAR wrote:Here's what I'd do for rules...

Maximum of 10:1 static compression
Maximum of 410 cubic inches
Must use a factory crankshaft
Must use a factory production block with factory cam base circle and type (no retrofit or big base circle cams)
Must use a hydraulic cam with a maximum of .550" lift as measured at the valve (cam may be custom grind)
Must use factory production iron heads with any porting or valve sizing allowed
Must use a dual plane intake with the center divider (no RPM airgap, carb spacers allowed but no more than 1" and must be divided or 4-hole)
Maximum carburetor CFM of 750
Engine must produce a minimum of 12" of vacuum at 1000 rpm idle
Fuel used will be 91 octane

Engine will be run at part throttle and full throttle with scoring for both averaged together.

I'd have fun building something for such a class. That could just be me though.


The title says race engine, not moms grocery getter engine challenge

i'd say no cubic inch limit, definitely no compression limit, and i would allow any fuel even methanol since you did specify RACE ENGINE however in the score i'd find a way to deduct points for things like needs 15 dollar a gallon race gas and needs valve lash checked after every pass, and fresh oil every weekend kind of a operating expense score. and since it is a race engine challenge i'd move the rpm range up to say 4000-8000 and probably limit heads to commercially available factory port layout stuff no splayed valve small block chevy or ford heads, same on intakes commercially available cast intakes any and all porting should be allowed on heads and intake and any induction. except power adders unless you give them there own class.

tt 383
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Re: Race Engine Challenge

Postby tt 383 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:14 pm

brechlrl wrote:
Just for my sake, could you be more exact on the "gap" that allowed the modulars to dominate?


They did not ban OHC but set a lower size limit of 400 cubes which everybody thought would eliminate the Mod Fords.. Kaase found a way to get over 400 inches and killed the 2 valve motors.. Another team did likewise and they finished 1-2 IIRC

Gotcha, and to anyone's knowledge who else has done a build like that for legit street or racing?


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