for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

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CamKing
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by CamKing » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:39 pm

Dragsinger wrote:Mike Jones, please be nice to me, I am old, besides, I have a gas oven.
I was just saying that, how a bushing lifter acts/feels without pressurized oil to it, tells you nothing.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by GARY C » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:44 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
tjs44 wrote:OK,after 6 pages of this stuff,I talked to Danny at RCR,he said most cup teams run the Jesel lifter.So if you figure the engine is made to last 700 miles that is 2800 1/4 mile passes.This is the lifter they run and they are needle bearings.Tom
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.p ... ers/keyway
Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.
That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:35 pm

GARY C wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
tjs44 wrote:OK,after 6 pages of this stuff,I talked to Danny at RCR,he said most cup teams run the Jesel lifter.So if you figure the engine is made to last 700 miles that is 2800 1/4 mile passes.This is the lifter they run and they are needle bearings.Tom
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.p ... ers/keyway
Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.
That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
Does it?!?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by GARY C » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:51 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
GARY C wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.
That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
Does it?!?
Yes it does!
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MadBill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:52 pm

It does leave one wondering why. It's not like bushed rollers add significant cost to a maybe $5,000+ cam/lifter combo or have cataclysmic failure modes, or... Why would they need to mandate a better choice? e.g. "Minimum compression ratio: 11.6:1"
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:27 pm

GARY C wrote:
Warp Speed wrote:
GARY C wrote: That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
Does it?!?
Yes it does!

Just because they are not allowed in competition, certainly doesn't mean they haven't been tested.
They aren't illegal because they give some advantage.
As it stands now, even if the rules were different, I don't believe you would see a design change across the sport.
JMO
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:30 pm

MadBill wrote:It does leave one wondering why. It's not like bushed rollers add significant cost to a maybe $5,000+ cam/lifter combo or have cataclysmic failure modes, or... Why would they need to mandate a better choice? e.g. "Minimum compression ratio: 11.6:1"
Must be political, as they aren't any more expensive really.

One major manufacture doesn't offer them......?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:37 pm

GARY C wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
tjs44 wrote:OK,after 6 pages of this stuff,I talked to Danny at RCR,he said most cup teams run the Jesel lifter.So if you figure the engine is made to last 700 miles that is 2800 1/4 mile passes.This is the lifter they run and they are needle bearings.Tom
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.p ... ers/keyway
Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.
That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
BTW, my original reference was not due to the fact that we run rollers and not the bushing because they are better, but that we don't run bushings, don't have problems, and thrash them far beyond what anyone here would ever do in a street car or bracket engine.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by GARY C » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:15 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
GARY C wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.
That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
BTW, my original reference was not due to the fact that we run rollers and not the bushing because they are better, but that we don't run bushings, don't have problems, and thrash them far beyond what anyone here would ever do in a street car or bracket engine.
I get that!
My statement was in general of the monkey see monkey do mind set.
The older I get the more I realize that if "monkey see why monkey do" then monkey might not do dat!

I am not a fan of the bushed lifter and it would not surprise me to see it become a thing of the past or limited use at best.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by swampbuggy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:27 pm

Warp speed----can you say that H.M.S. has NEVER had any roller lifter needle bearings fail ???

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:03 pm

MadBill wrote:Although the numbers are relatively small compared to needle designs, there are many thousands of bushed lifters in service on the street and in race apps. Can anyone provide details/pix of roller failures of same?
I have one here that I took out if a BBF, isky EZ bushed SR and a Crow Cams camshaft. I'll dig it out later and send some pix.
P.s. about 150ish street miles at failure
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by nhrastocker » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:00 am

swampbuggy wrote:Warp speed----can you say that H.M.S. has NEVER had any roller lifter needle bearings fail ???
All I can say is I have used many Jesel and Morel NASCAR takeoff/used key lifters with needle bearings and put them in drag racing engines running more compression and way higher RPM's with no failures.

I know of many others doing the same without failures.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:06 am

IMG_20170815_13357.jpg
Cant actually feel or measure the marks on the axle.
IMG_20170815_30472.jpg
Look at the bushing, you can see a mark that goes from one side to the other, this is on the loaded part of the roller in line with a flattened skid on the outside of the wheel. Measures up at .0005" of a dip in the bush at that point.
IMG_20170815_59753.jpg
Wheel not so happy.
IMG_20170815_2717.jpg
The skid, flattened area of wheel.
IMG_20170815_58234.jpg
Opening side of lobe.
IMG_20170815_1257.jpg
Closing side of lobe.
IMG_20170815_12925.jpg
Prior to pull apart, the roller wheel 'felt' smooth to turn, most of the time, then suddenly it would grip up then if turned further ir turned backward it would then free up and feel fine again, then occasionally grip up again. See the little flaw in the body im pointing the pick at, when I pulled the wheel out then started inspecting and noticed the flaw I touched it with the pick and a little flake of metal came out of there!
Fwiw all othe lifters were fine.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by In-Tech » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:20 am

In-Tech wrote:Since I have no experience with bushed lifters, I asked a question in another thread regarding a rev kit and bushed lifters as to wear. No response.

The only thing I can offer is a LS test where we had stock needle fulcrum bearing rockers on the hyd roller engine and ran to 7100 rpm, then with no other changes, installed bushed rockers and the engine fell off like a stone at 6800 rpm. I have no idea what the clearances were in the rocker. I'm still not sold on anything bushed that isn't pressure fed and/or cyclic on pressure like a piston pin. JMO
Has anyone else seen anything like I experienced on the rockers? It tells me something about bushings in a "splash" environment. Exact same LS rocker arms, one set with needle bearings and one set with bushings. Was the bushing fitment too tight? I don't know, not my engine...just an interesting observation.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by turdwilly » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:55 am

I was absolutely convinced that the bushing lifters were the way to go on the street build I was doing, until I talked to a tech at Motorsports Unlimited. He said they are located about 3 miles from the Morel manufacturing facility, & that he would definitely not recommend bushing lifters in a street application, as he had personally seen several sets of street-use Morel bushing lifters come back seized.

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