Page 4 of 8
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:28 am
by Geoff2
To add to what Charlie said, maaaaaaaaany motorcycles for maaaaaaany decades used both roller & ball bearings for both big ends & mains, as do many two stroke engines. They require minimal lubrication, so ask yourself why needle roller brgs, the same roller brg, in a roller lifter would need a high pressure oil supply.....
Did I say hear somebody say....marketing hype....
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:19 am
by cjperformance
Geoff2 wrote:To add to what Charlie said, maaaaaaaaany motorcycles for maaaaaaany decades used both roller & ball bearings for both big ends & mains, as do many two stroke engines. They require minimal lubrication, so ask yourself why needle roller brgs, the same roller brg, in a roller lifter would need a high pressure oil supply.....
Did I say hear somebody say....marketing hype....
A needle or for that matter ball roller does not require high pressure oiling, they just require consistent clean oil. Marketing hype is everywhere!
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:44 am
by turdwilly
Perhaps the benefit of pressurized oiling through the needle bearings of the lifter is not so much from the standpoint of lubrication, but of cooling?
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:05 am
by CamKing
Dragsinger wrote:With the original build, we installed a bushed roller lifter. With the rocker arms removed the engine assembly would rotate easily and smoothly with an 18" bar on the damper bolt. As the rockers were installed, it required turning the engine with the starter to assemble and adjust the rockers. The rotation effort was very high.
After a tear down to make some changes we installed to a needle roller lifter. Now, the completed assembly, including rockers can easily be rotated with the 18" bar.
The rotation effort by hand is significantly reduced. This is an unscientific observation and may not make any difference once the engine is spinning.
This is like saying, a book of matches did a better job of heating my dinner, then my oven.........oh, and by the way, my oven wasn't plugged in.
As for running bushing lifters in a marine application,
Here's one of our "marine" customers, that's been running our bushing lifters for the last 2 seasons. Zero problems. 2 championships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuo5p-K ... e=youtu.be
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:33 am
by Racerrick
cjperformance wrote:Geoff2 wrote:To add to what Charlie said, maaaaaaaaany motorcycles for maaaaaaany decades used both roller & ball bearings for both big ends & mains, as do many two stroke engines. They require minimal lubrication, so ask yourself why needle roller brgs, the same roller brg, in a roller lifter would need a high pressure oil supply.....
Did I say hear somebody say....marketing hype....
A needle or for that matter ball roller does not require high pressure oiling, they just require consistent clean oil. Marketing hype is everywhere!
Yes, the hype is right here.
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:46 pm
by Belgian1979
Looks like the only advantage of a bushed lifter vs a needle roller lifter is that in case of an actual failure the resulting damage is less. In case of rigorous preventative maintenance the difference is nil.
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:53 pm
by Warp Speed
It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?
There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching!
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:42 pm
by nhrastocker
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:40 pm
by Belgian1979
Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?
There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching!
Why does a needle bearing in a Harley (see example mentioned above) then survive ?
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:16 pm
by pamotorman
a lot of these needle bearing engine use caged needles where there is space for the lube to get into the bearings. roller lifters have the needles rubbing on each other with no space for the lube to get in
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:06 pm
by Belgian1979
pamotorman wrote:a lot of these needle bearing engine use caged needles where there is space for the lube to get into the bearings. roller lifters have the needles rubbing on each other with no space for the lube to get in
I don't think that is the explanation. Lube will get in there, no doubt. Lots of bearings survive with only a mist of oil.
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:11 pm
by cjperformance
Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?
There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching!
Exactly !
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:15 pm
by Belgian1979
cjperformance wrote:Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?
There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching!
Exactly !
I agree that oil is a requirement to carry away the heat of the needles.
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:24 pm
by turdwilly
Belgian1979 wrote:Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?
There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching!
Why does a needle bearing in a Harley (see example mentioned above) then survive ?
I will take a shot..my SWAG is that the rod & main bearings in a Harley aren't subject to the hammering loads of a solid roller lifter, nor are they anywhere near the surface/bearing speed of the lifter as Warp stated above. Why does a hydraulic roller lifter bearing last so much longer than a solid roller lifter bearing? My SWAG on that is that it's not hammered like the solid is.
Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:27 pm
by Belgian1979
what i said in the other thread about shockloads
