for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

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MadBill
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MadBill » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:12 pm

cjperformance wrote:...Look at the bushing, you can see a mark that goes from one side to the other, this is on the loaded part of the roller in line with a flattened skid on the outside of the wheel. Measures up at .0005" of a dip in the bush at that point...
Prior to pull apart, the roller wheel 'felt' smooth to turn, most of the time, then suddenly it would grip up then if turned further ir turned backward it would then free up and feel fine again, then occasionally grip up again. See the little flaw in the body im pointing the pick at, when I pulled the wheel out then started inspecting and noticed the flaw I touched it with the pick and a little flake of metal came out of there!
Fwiw all othe lifters were fine.
If I'm not reading too much into the data, sounds like the roller seized due to flaked debris, causing the bushing to indent at the contact line due to lack of rotation? if so, this could perhaps be classed as a lifter issue but not a bushing failure.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MadBill » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:22 pm

turdwilly wrote:I was absolutely convinced that the bushing lifters were the way to go on the street build I was doing, until I talked to a tech at Motorsports Unlimited. He said they are located about 3 miles from the Morel manufacturing facility, & that he would definitely not recommend bushing lifters in a street application, as he had personally seen several sets of street-use Morel bushing lifters come back seized.
Wow. I've read everything I can find on Morel lifters (much of it on the Straub Technologies site) and can find nothing to suggest that, for example, their new super-premium Black Mamba bushed lifters are unsuitable for street use. Maybe Chris S. will weigh in re same...
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Orr89rocz » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:41 pm

If you have dirty oil i think the bushings would be more susceptible to seizing up. But thats just what i read

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cstraub » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:55 pm

MadBill wrote:
turdwilly wrote:I was absolutely convinced that the bushing lifters were the way to go on the street build I was doing, until I talked to a tech at Motorsports Unlimited. He said they are located about 3 miles from the Morel manufacturing facility, & that he would definitely not recommend bushing lifters in a street application, as he had personally seen several sets of street-use Morel bushing lifters come back seized.
Wow. I've read everything I can find on Morel lifters (much of it on the Straub Technologies site) and can find nothing to suggest that, for example, their new super-premium Black Mamba bushed lifters are unsuitable for street use. Maybe Chris S. will weigh in re same...
Mamba's have no needles and no bushings. This technology comes from diesel engines. It is a wheel and an axle. Nothing else. If there is an engine that idles a great deal it is a diesel. This lifter functions with an oil wedge between the wheel and axle. I have extremely good luck with the Morel brand.
Chris Straub
Performance Mfg.
http://www.straubtechnologies.com
www.distributorgears.com

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MadBill » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:59 pm

Ah, got it: the BM axle is a non-ferrous material, presumably with lubricative properties similar to that of typical bushings. The resulting larger bearing diameter, positive oil supply and hydrodynamic wedge would contribute to low friction and long life under a wide range of operating conditions.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by englertracing » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:30 pm

MadBill wrote:Ah, got it: the BM axle is a non-ferrous material, presumably with lubricative properties similar to that of typical bushings. The resulting larger bearing diameter, positive oil supply and hydrodynamic wedge would contribute to low friction and long life under a wide range of operating conditions.
yeah they are pretty neat huh?

I wanted a set for the motor we are building my little brother,
but we got a deal on jesels,
speaking with jesel they are 100% against bushing lifters

interesting really that morel and jesel have opposing views on them

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by turdwilly » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:45 pm

Orr89rocz wrote:If you have dirty oil i think the bushings would be more susceptible to seizing up. But thats just what i read
That was my assumption - that in street applications folks weren't changing the oil frequently, which led to the seizures. But I only built the engine & won't be in control of how often the owner changes the oil, so I went with the Morel UltaPro needle lifters.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by carmakerevive » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:34 pm

englertracing wrote:interesting really that morel and jesel have opposing views on them
Thats performance/motorsports marketing 101....

Find what your competitor does, do the opposite and swear black and blue that yours is the best!
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cstraub » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:13 am

One advantage Morel has over most mfg's is they do heat treat in house. Those of you that involved in mfg of parts that require heat treating understand how important heat treating is to the part and having control in house is huge.
Chris Straub
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www.distributorgears.com

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:21 am

MadBill wrote:Ah, got it: the BM axle is a non-ferrous material, presumably with lubricative properties similar to that of typical bushings. The resulting larger bearing diameter, positive oil supply and hydrodynamic wedge would contribute to low friction and long life under a wide range of operating conditions.
Self lubricating bushing ?

Ok, that means that clean oil is imperative. However, usually a self lubricating bronze is softer....it's a material that sacrifices itself.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MadBill » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:12 pm

In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:50 pm

MadBill wrote:In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.
Actually I have a case involving a sluice with a hinge point that had a self lubricating bronze. The bronze turned on stainless and was clearly intended to be the wearing part.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by statsystems » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:39 pm

MadBill wrote:In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

Tribological?

Damn. Where's my dictionary?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:51 pm

statsystems wrote:
MadBill wrote:In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

Tribological?

Damn. Where's my dictionary?
Study of interaction between surfaces that slide on eachother (or any other type of movement where they interact)

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MadBill » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:15 pm

Belgian1979 wrote:
MadBill wrote:In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.
Actually I have a case involving a sluice with a hinge point that had a self lubricating bronze. The bronze turned on stainless and was clearly intended to be the wearing part.
On the other hand for example, in Vincent V-Twin motorcycles circa 1948-55, the rockers pivoted on pressed-in shafts like tiny wrist pins, running in aluminum trunnions. Neglect by the previous owner of one of mine had brought on numerous problems, including wear on the loaded upper surface of the pins, to the extent that the portions within the oil feed holes were left unworn and protruding like a tiny volcanoes. New pins fitted snugly in the old trunnions, but wore quickly because of the previously-embedded grit particles. Fitting both new pins and trunnions solved the issue.
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