for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

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Belgian1979
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:06 pm

pamotorman wrote:a lot of these needle bearing engine use caged needles where there is space for the lube to get into the bearings. roller lifters have the needles rubbing on each other with no space for the lube to get in
I don't think that is the explanation. Lube will get in there, no doubt. Lots of bearings survive with only a mist of oil.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:11 pm

Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?

There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching! :wink:
Exactly !
Craig.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:15 pm

cjperformance wrote:
Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?

There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching! :wink:
Exactly !
I agree that oil is a requirement to carry away the heat of the needles.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by turdwilly » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:24 pm

Belgian1979 wrote:
Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?

There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching! :wink:
Why does a needle bearing in a Harley (see example mentioned above) then survive ?
I will take a shot..my SWAG is that the rod & main bearings in a Harley aren't subject to the hammering loads of a solid roller lifter, nor are they anywhere near the surface/bearing speed of the lifter as Warp stated above. Why does a hydraulic roller lifter bearing last so much longer than a solid roller lifter bearing? My SWAG on that is that it's not hammered like the solid is.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:27 pm

what i said in the other thread about shockloads

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:13 pm

Belgian1979 wrote:what i said in the other thread about shockloads
Not to mention the massive surface speed changes as the roller acels and decels up and down the lobe, a bit hard to compare that to a uni joint or crank bearing !
Craig.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:24 pm

CamKing wrote: As for running bushing lifters in a marine application,
Here's one of our "marine" customers, that's been running our bushing lifters for the last 2 seasons. Zero problems. 2 championships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuo5p-K ... e=youtu.be
Nice, thats definetly one motorsport where you dont want to have an 'oh shit' moment and back off the throttle mid turn!
Craig.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:26 pm

Also in all of this its interesting to note thay Iskys advertising for EZX's says low friction, and , increased horsepower. But compared to what? Not that im bagging them as i like and use them.
Craig.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Geoff2 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:52 am

[1] Roller brgs in a lifter... are compared to a U joint...or a wheel brg....because they are ALL roller brgs. Just different sizes & shapes....

[2] Hammering loads. A hyd lifter bleeds down, certainly at low rpm, so when it seats there is clearance in the valve train & is subject to some amount of hammer. If the lifter floats at higher rpms, then at some point it will crash down on the lobe, giving new meaning to the word hammer....

[3] H-D roller brg big ends [ & other brands ]. The rods [ & brgs ] have to stop the piston as it comes to a stop at TDC. At high rpms at the end of the exhaust stroke, this load assumes several hundred pounds that has to be absorbed by the rod brgs. If that is not a hammer like load, then I don't know what is....

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:47 am

Geoff2 wrote:[1] Roller brgs in a lifter... are compared to a U joint...or a wheel brg....because they are ALL roller brgs. Just different sizes & shapes....

[2] Hammering loads. A hyd lifter bleeds down, certainly at low rpm, so when it seats there is clearance in the valve train & is subject to some amount of hammer. If the lifter floats at higher rpms, then at some point it will crash down on the lobe, giving new meaning to the word hammer....

[3] H-D roller brg big ends [ & other brands ]. The rods [ & brgs ] have to stop the piston as it comes to a stop at TDC. At high rpms at the end of the exhaust stroke, this load assumes several hundred pounds that has to be absorbed by the rod brgs. If that is not a hammer like load, then I don't know what is....
You are really comparing Apple's to bananas in an effort to support your views. [-X

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:03 am

And for the guys preaching a rev kit as the holy grail of fixes, while they may reduce the rapid speed change during separation, they do very little to reduce the shock, as there is still separation/lash in the system, and the resulting shock loads are still transmitted to the needle bearing via the axle.
The only way to really reduce it, or soften the blow, is to eliminate the system separation all together. IE hydraulic lifters.....

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Dragsinger » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:11 am

Mike Jones, please be nice to me, I am old, besides, I have a gas oven.

And for what's it's worth, I am a successful drag racer with many wins and many years of experience. Simply an old country boy sharing his thoughts and experiences.

This is one of my projects http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=54442
Larry Woodfin, Flyn with the Race Bird

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:45 am

Warp Speed wrote:And for the guys preaching a rev kit as the holy grail of fixes, while they may reduce the rapid speed change during separation, they do very little to reduce the shock, as there is still separation/lash in the system, and the resulting shock loads are still transmitted to the needle bearing via the axle.
The only way to really reduce it, or soften the blow, is to eliminate the system separation all together. IE hydraulic lifters.....
Warp, a rev kit is only the holy grail of keeping the roller at lobe speed with an SR until an rpm is reached that allows the lifter mass to overcome the rev kit spring force. My point with the rev kit (should be renamed SR Street Kit for this purpose) is to keep that wheel on the lobe at idle and lower rpms, and it does that quite well.
Any shock loads that the valvetrain sees are of course felt by every moving part no matter what and the shock loads, at least the largest not considering valve float are only as harsh as the lash ramps allow.
Possibly the best of both worlds at least for a streeter would be a short travel hydro lifter on an SR lobe that has been tweeked to allow for the difference in said lifters characteristics.
May as well just run a big girly roller! :lol:
Craig.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:27 pm

cjperformance wrote:
Warp Speed wrote:And for the guys preaching a rev kit as the holy grail of fixes, while they may reduce the rapid speed change during separation, they do very little to reduce the shock, as there is still separation/lash in the system, and the resulting shock loads are still transmitted to the needle bearing via the axle.
The only way to really reduce it, or soften the blow, is to eliminate the system separation all together. IE hydraulic lifters.....
Warp, a rev kit is only the holy grail of keeping the roller at lobe speed with an SR until an rpm is reached that allows the lifter mass to overcome the rev kit spring force. My point with the rev kit (should be renamed SR Street Kit for this purpose) is to keep that wheel on the lobe at idle and lower rpms, and it does that quite well.
Any shock loads that the valvetrain sees are of course felt by every moving part no matter what and the shock loads, at least the largest not considering valve float are only as harsh as the lash ramps allow.
Possibly the best of both worlds at least for a streeter would be a short travel hydro lifter on an SR lobe that has been tweeked to allow for the difference in said lifters characteristics.
May as well just run a big girly roller! :lol:
At idle and low speed, what is the rpm of the roller wheel, and how much does this rpm change as it rolls around the lobe, assuming constant contact?
At this rpm, with solid roller lash, is the inertia weight of the wheel itself enough to cause a rapid change above surface/lobe speed in the short time cam is on the base circle? Or are you saying the roller actually stops?
Is that what we're trying to cure with a rev kit or?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:29 pm

I do know one thing, that engines with revkits and needle bearing lifters, live longer than the ones without.

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