for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Belgian1979 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:59 am

In crank and rod bearings you also have to extract a lot of heat. Less so (in principle) for the lifters.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby j-c-c » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:24 am

Jeff Lee wrote:Because...theoretically....there is no friction between rabbit bearings and rods or crankshaft.
Andy Grannetelli (sp?), way back in the 60’s I believe, spent big bucks on building an engine with needle bearings. Found out he spent a lot of money for no gains.


I know that's the common thinking, but in the reply above, he mentions extracting a lot of heat, and heat comes from friction, so there seems to be mixed messages here, and if rabbit bearings can have "no friction" why can't oil fed bushed roller lifters?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Belgian1979 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:48 am

j-c-c wrote:
Jeff Lee wrote:Because...theoretically....there is no friction between rabbit bearings and rods or crankshaft.
Andy Grannetelli (sp?), way back in the 60’s I believe, spent big bucks on building an engine with needle bearings. Found out he spent a lot of money for no gains.


I know that's the common thinking, but in the reply above, he mentions extracting a lot of heat, and heat comes from friction, so there seems to be mixed messages here, and if rabbit bearings can have "no friction" why can't oil fed bushed roller lifters?


Ahum, pistons, rods and eventually crank bearings are subjected to the heat of combustion in one way or another. This is far less the case with lifters.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby GARY C » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:20 pm

j-c-c wrote:
GARY C wrote:
Belgian1979 wrote:
It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...

This is why your mains and rods are fed first in the oiling system, without a constant fed film of oil to ride one then it's just metal rubbing metal.
How long do you think mains and rods would last if they were fed at the end of the oiling cycle instead of first on cold start up?


With all the love affair with needles, and the downsides of bushings, but that then begs the question, why aren't needles used more ofte in main/rods if friction is such a negative?

The hand spin test for any kind of fair comparison, should be with a pressurized oil feed, IMO
Cost, space and needed oil supply.
"Many of these engines used roller bearing crankshafts, where either the main bearings, con rod bearings or both used rolling element rather than plain bearings; these days it is far more common to find four-stroke engines using plain bearing crankshafts. Two-stroke engines use roller bearing crankshafts owing to their need to lubricate the bottom end of the engine with a mixture of fuel and oil. Quite often with two-strokes, the big-end bearing runs directly on the crankpin, and the main bearings have a bearing inner race pressed onto the crankshaft.

That is not to say that, for four-stroke engines, roller bearing crankshafts slipped into the mists of time with the likes of the 50 cc twin-cylinder Honda, its bigger six-cylinder 250 cc cousin, or their contemporaries. Ducati has used roller bearing crankshafts on its Superbike engines for many years, right up until the recent release of the 1199 cc Panigale, which uses plain bearings.

There was also a brief flirtation with roller-bearing crankshafts in Formula One in the V10 era. The reason for this was the promise of lower friction, but while some people found this to be true, with significant reductions in friction, others found the gain to be negligible. According to one leading engineer, this variance was thought to be due to the differences in the amount of oil flow through the plain bearings that the roller bearing crankshaft was being compared to. As the roller bearing requires little oil to provide lubrication then some engines which, as a plain bearing engine, required lower flow rates would see less benefit compared to one which required higher flow rates."
https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/370 ... rankshafts

A roller cam bearing is considered an "upgrade".
Image

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby CharlieB53 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Harley has been using roller crank and rod bearings for a long time already. The Harley oiling system is low pressure and low volume.

It takes HP to move oil.

Selecting bearing sizes, fitting the correct bearing rollers is critical to achieving any type of longevity. Too loose and the rollers skate, too tight they bind at temp and flake and die an early death.

In a high volume production line it may be the excessive time required that prompts the bean counters decision to remain with babbit bearings.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Geoff2 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:28 am

To add to what Charlie said, maaaaaaaaany motorcycles for maaaaaaany decades used both roller & ball bearings for both big ends & mains, as do many two stroke engines. They require minimal lubrication, so ask yourself why needle roller brgs, the same roller brg, in a roller lifter would need a high pressure oil supply.....
Did I say hear somebody say....marketing hype....

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby cjperformance » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:19 am

Geoff2 wrote:To add to what Charlie said, maaaaaaaaany motorcycles for maaaaaaany decades used both roller & ball bearings for both big ends & mains, as do many two stroke engines. They require minimal lubrication, so ask yourself why needle roller brgs, the same roller brg, in a roller lifter would need a high pressure oil supply.....
Did I say hear somebody say....marketing hype....


A needle or for that matter ball roller does not require high pressure oiling, they just require consistent clean oil. Marketing hype is everywhere!
Craig.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby turdwilly » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:44 am

Perhaps the benefit of pressurized oiling through the needle bearings of the lifter is not so much from the standpoint of lubrication, but of cooling?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby CamKing » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:05 am

Dragsinger wrote:With the original build, we installed a bushed roller lifter. With the rocker arms removed the engine assembly would rotate easily and smoothly with an 18" bar on the damper bolt. As the rockers were installed, it required turning the engine with the starter to assemble and adjust the rockers. The rotation effort was very high.

After a tear down to make some changes we installed to a needle roller lifter. Now, the completed assembly, including rockers can easily be rotated with the 18" bar.

The rotation effort by hand is significantly reduced. This is an unscientific observation and may not make any difference once the engine is spinning.

This is like saying, a book of matches did a better job of heating my dinner, then my oven.........oh, and by the way, my oven wasn't plugged in. :lol:

As for running bushing lifters in a marine application,
Here's one of our "marine" customers, that's been running our bushing lifters for the last 2 seasons. Zero problems. 2 championships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuo5p-K ... e=youtu.be
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
(704)489-2449

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Racerrick » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:33 am

cjperformance wrote:
Geoff2 wrote:To add to what Charlie said, maaaaaaaaany motorcycles for maaaaaaany decades used both roller & ball bearings for both big ends & mains, as do many two stroke engines. They require minimal lubrication, so ask yourself why needle roller brgs, the same roller brg, in a roller lifter would need a high pressure oil supply.....
Did I say hear somebody say....marketing hype....


A needle or for that matter ball roller does not require high pressure oiling, they just require consistent clean oil. Marketing hype is everywhere!

Yes, the hype is right here.

by cstraub » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:54 am

Mpcoluv wrote:
So what lifters are Cup guys running?



http://www.johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Jimmi ... 7thWin.pdf
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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Belgian1979 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:46 am

Looks like the only advantage of a bushed lifter vs a needle roller lifter is that in case of an actual failure the resulting damage is less. In case of rigorous preventative maintenance the difference is nil.

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Warp Speed » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:53 am

It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?

There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching! :wink:

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby nhrastocker » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:42 pm

Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?

There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching! :wink:


Correct! 8) 8) 8) 8)

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby Belgian1979 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:40 pm

Warp Speed wrote:It is a given the needle or ball bearings require less lubrication than a plain bearing, but everyone is relating it to u joints or wheel bearings. What is the surface/bearing speed in a needle bearing roller lifter compared the the other examples?!?

There is a bit more to the pressure fed roller lifter than the marketing hype you guys are preaching! :wink:


Why does a needle bearing in a Harley (see example mentioned above) then survive ?

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Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Postby pamotorman » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:16 pm

a lot of these needle bearing engine use caged needles where there is space for the lube to get into the bearings. roller lifters have the needles rubbing on each other with no space for the lube to get in


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