for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Post Reply
j-c-c
Member
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by j-c-c » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:16 am

Warp Speed wrote:
cjperformance wrote:Ballpark 800-1000 idle , cruise 1300 - 2800 is what I call a Saturday night cruiser for solid roller.
Why would you consider a solid roller for this type of mild application, when a modern hydraulic roller would be more than enough?
I thought the main purpose of the bushed roller solution was #1 Endurance applications #2 reliability #3 reducing associated catastrophic failure from loose needles, etc and the cost therein, not HP any gains or loses from friction.

Orr89rocz
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1559
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:25 pm

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Orr89rocz » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:24 am

Warp Speed wrote:
cjperformance wrote:Ballpark 800-1000 idle , cruise 1300 - 2800 is what I call a Saturday night cruiser for solid roller.
Why would you consider a solid roller for this type of mild application, when a modern hydraulic roller would be more than enough?
Guy like me building a turbo bbc. Heavy 2.3 intake valve, heavy 1.88 inconel exhaust.

Street driving 2000-2500 miles a year. Previously had a sbc hyd roller car but looking for much more power with internals reliability and longevity. 1800-2000 hp range. Street boost will be 1000-1300 hp range like my old sbc.

Now track it will run to 7000-7500 tops. Solid roller cam is ideal here imo due to weight of stuff plus boost. Going fairly mild on lobes and using 1.8/1.7 rockers.
Turbo gearing, 3.08 final gear, i plan on 55-60 mph cruise in that 2000-2500 rpm range. Idle 1000-1200 to keep some oil splash even tho it would idle lower. Cam wont be big.
I'm going bushing lifters since its what i have at the moment. We'll see how it goes. Todays efi and tech makes making power fairly easy. Now just need to figure out how to keep valvetrain happy, and i think thats gonna be mild lobes, lower lash, probably gonna run spring oilers, and big pushrods/shaft rockers to keep things stable.

Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:23 am

cjperformance wrote:
Nick Campagna wrote:What kind of spring pressure is used for the rev kit portion ?
30/35# as a start and is plenty to do the job on a streeter to keep the wheel on the lobe for the saturday night cruisers! , more for heavier lifters/more agressive lobes, the most I have ever used is 55#
I'm note sure what the pressure was on my Crane kit with the valve closed, but I remember the pressure when the valve was closed was something like 100 lbs. It takes quite an effort to take them out.

Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:25 am

Warp Speed wrote:
desoto30 wrote:How much idle time & what would be the service interval?
Of course the top NASCAR series I mentioned doesn't have the low rpm or extended isle time some full street cars would see. But then again, most wouldn't run anywhere near the valve lift or acceleration the system sees in our application.

While we are on the subject of street duty, what is everyone's idea of idle and low speed rpm mentioned?
Are we talking about a 700rpm idle and 1200-1800 rpm cruise?
I run 1050-1100 always. Cruise is 2500-3000 rpm.

Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:29 am

Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.

cstraub
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:30 pm
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
Contact:

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cstraub » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:54 am

Belgian1979 wrote:Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.
They will cost you some HP due to friction.
Chris Straub
Performance Mfg.
http://www.straubtechnologies.com
www.distributorgears.com

cstraub
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:30 pm
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
Contact:

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cstraub » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:54 am

Mpcoluv wrote:So what lifters are Cup guys running?

http://www.johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Jimmi ... 7thWin.pdf
Chris Straub
Performance Mfg.
http://www.straubtechnologies.com
www.distributorgears.com

Belgian1979
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:34 am
Location: Belgium - Koersel

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Belgian1979 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:11 pm

cstraub wrote:
Belgian1979 wrote:Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.
They will cost you some HP due to friction.
It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...

cstraub
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1058
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:30 pm
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
Contact:

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cstraub » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:30 pm

Belgian1979 wrote:
cstraub wrote:
Belgian1979 wrote:Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.
They will cost you some HP due to friction.
It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...
If you got a good ear for engine sounds then you don't need bushing lifters.
Chris Straub
Performance Mfg.
http://www.straubtechnologies.com
www.distributorgears.com

MTENGINES
Member
Member
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:52 am
Location: MN

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by MTENGINES » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:50 pm

Mpcoluv wrote:So what lifters are Cup guys running?
Our shop used Crane in mid/late 90s early 2k, then Crower, for the Busch and Hooters Pro Cup, ARCA, Craftsman.etc Roller stuff.
late Sb2 and early R07 was Jesel keyways.. All of the rollers we used had needle bearings, rocker arms too.

The shop my buddy worked for Used morel and only morel. they were needle bearing as well.
I think brand may mostly be team or builder preference.

Rocker arms were the only things that would go on our stuff, mainly from spring pressure being lost. but that was yeeeears ago. Not because a needle bearing.

Needle bearings were used as am bearings.. no harm there either.

I think proper spring rate and lashing along with bore clearance makes a lifter last. Sure oiling does, but less than you would think. Saying you need to go bushing because everyone else does is bandwagon.. and like I had mentioned earlier, I have customers with thousands of miles per year on .8xx and higher lift cams, and 800-1100lbs open pressures on needle bearings. most use Crower. some have Herberts or Howards which are morel. but I never use Comp, its a personal preference not to.

If you plan on letting your lash get way out of whack go for the bushings, and keep an extra set of pushrods and rocker cups too.

GARY C
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3381
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by GARY C » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:33 pm

Belgian1979 wrote:
cstraub wrote:
Belgian1979 wrote:Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.
They will cost you some HP due to friction.
It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...
This is why your mains and rods are fed first in the oiling system, without a constant fed film of oil to ride one then it's just metal rubbing metal.
How long do you think mains and rods would last if they were fed at the end of the oiling cycle instead of first on cold start up?

Caster67
New Member
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:59 am

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Caster67 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:33 am

cstraub wrote:
Belgian1979 wrote:Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.
They will cost you some HP due to friction.
What kind of HP difference are we talking about compared to a needle bearing lifter?

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by cjperformance » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:28 pm

Hp difference would be interesting, someone must have done a 'needle v bushed' back to back. Only one ive had on the dyno before and after a needle to bush change also had a cam swap to a slightly more street friendly lobe, very close spec but still not worthy of an accurate back to back.
Craig.

j-c-c
Member
Member
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by j-c-c » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:51 pm

GARY C wrote:
Belgian1979 wrote:
cstraub wrote:
They will cost you some HP due to friction.
It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...
This is why your mains and rods are fed first in the oiling system, without a constant fed film of oil to ride one then it's just metal rubbing metal.
How long do you think mains and rods would last if they were fed at the end of the oiling cycle instead of first on cold start up?
With all the love affair with needles, and the downsides of bushings, but that then begs the question, why aren't needles used more ofte in main/rods if friction is such a negative?

The hand spin test for any kind of fair comparison, should be with a pressurized oil feed, IMO

Jeff Lee
Pro
Pro
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:20 am
Location: Anthem / Phoenix Arizona

Re: for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

Post by Jeff Lee » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:58 am

Because...theoretically....there is no friction between rabbit bearings and rods or crankshaft.
Andy Grannetelli (sp?), way back in the 60’s I believe, spent big bucks on building an engine with needle bearings. Found out he spent a lot of money for no gains.
NHRA SS/H
1970 AMX
390 4-speed
Advanced Clutches
Red Line Racing Cams

Post Reply