Anyone understand what the heck this thing is actually doing?
At first I thought it was going to be a regenerative braking system that then used an electric turbo, but is it actually directly spinning the crank shaft via pulley? If so, that seems... terrifying...
http://www.enginelabs.com/news/sema-201 ... aws-crowds
Adam
Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
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NewbVetteGuy
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Hairyscreech
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Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
Yep, looks like just a belt drive. Probably an off the shelf supercharger belt drive so more than up to the job.
Not sure I would want it acting as the starter motor as well as the EV drive, if it was just the EV drive then no issue if the belt goes.
What turns me off to any of these new hybrid or electric vehicles is that they are all hateful modern boxes, ugly, disposable and like driving a car on a playstation for all the feedback they give.
To me they are a serious downgrade to the point of a new car being nothing but a last resort.
I actually think this kind of retrofit system could be really good for street driven classics.
Certainly on cars that are ok to chop about (i.e. not a mint, original superbird) then a system mounted in the prop tunnel turning the prop that adds up to 150lb/ft depending on throttle angle could be great.
You would be be adding instant bottom end torque with no other real change to the character of the vehicle.
For the old 6 cylinder engines I muck about with that would be bumping them over 300lb/ft and ~260hp with no other changes, a pretty good result for no negative but weight.
An added 300lb in weight is a sacrifice but on a vehicle already weighing 2866lb the torque would more than make up for it.
With the system as an additional drive rather than a replacement for the IC you do some clever things like make it work as an auto at low speed in stop/go traffic and normal manual otherwise. If you have ever had to work a heavy clutch in a motorway jam for a couple of hours then you know where I am coming from on that one.
Range is not a problem in a setup like that, battery goes flat then just drive it like you would before.
Means a lighter system is practical as a short range doesn't matter, if it was only used on acceleration and charged while idling, or on closed throttle overrun then it could be lighter still.
Even fitting a modified fuel tank to make room for and hide the battery pack would be no issue, losing 20l of fuel tank space would still give me about a 280 mile just gasoline range.
Hell even I would be happy to have a hybrid classic done like that with it all hidden in the prop tunnel, or under the floor.
It's a win all round.
Not sure I would want it acting as the starter motor as well as the EV drive, if it was just the EV drive then no issue if the belt goes.
What turns me off to any of these new hybrid or electric vehicles is that they are all hateful modern boxes, ugly, disposable and like driving a car on a playstation for all the feedback they give.
To me they are a serious downgrade to the point of a new car being nothing but a last resort.
I actually think this kind of retrofit system could be really good for street driven classics.
Certainly on cars that are ok to chop about (i.e. not a mint, original superbird) then a system mounted in the prop tunnel turning the prop that adds up to 150lb/ft depending on throttle angle could be great.
You would be be adding instant bottom end torque with no other real change to the character of the vehicle.
For the old 6 cylinder engines I muck about with that would be bumping them over 300lb/ft and ~260hp with no other changes, a pretty good result for no negative but weight.
An added 300lb in weight is a sacrifice but on a vehicle already weighing 2866lb the torque would more than make up for it.
With the system as an additional drive rather than a replacement for the IC you do some clever things like make it work as an auto at low speed in stop/go traffic and normal manual otherwise. If you have ever had to work a heavy clutch in a motorway jam for a couple of hours then you know where I am coming from on that one.
Range is not a problem in a setup like that, battery goes flat then just drive it like you would before.
Means a lighter system is practical as a short range doesn't matter, if it was only used on acceleration and charged while idling, or on closed throttle overrun then it could be lighter still.
Even fitting a modified fuel tank to make room for and hide the battery pack would be no issue, losing 20l of fuel tank space would still give me about a 280 mile just gasoline range.
Hell even I would be happy to have a hybrid classic done like that with it all hidden in the prop tunnel, or under the floor.
It's a win all round.
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NewbVetteGuy
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Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
I agree with most of what you said. I think there's a huge opportunity for bolt-on or minor modification retrofit hybrid systems in HotRods if the systems get smarter and cheaper; they can be essentially a 4th category of "power adder" for low RPM torque and acceleration, anyway.
IMO, a system that can add 200ft lbs of torque to each of the front wheels of a RWD car could be fantastically popular. This thing is just a prototype and wasn't remotely ready to be an actual product back in 2012 but I think the concept is about right: https://www.wired.com/2012/08/hybrid-conversion/
$3,000 to add 400 ft lbs and double city fuel economy.
A "track mode" option that essentially makes the car a 4wd out-of-the-hole and that then doubles city mpg and provides a low-speed "limp home mode" for up to 30 miles would be pretty fantastic. Having the system integrated into or replacing the existing, unpowered wheel hubs would make regenerative braking-based charging a possibility, too.
A 2nd version with double the battery capacity as a plug-in with EV-only mode (daytime driving wo power steering or electric power steering; automatically put trans into neutral) would mean you could do short trips/commutes with no fuel usage and park right up front in the EV spaces, too.
It's way easier to power the rear wheels for a FWD system with the batteries near the rear wheels, but I'd really love to have 400 extra ft lbs of torque and 2 extra wheels of traction for a RWD car; sure would be a conversation piece at a track day event...
Adam
IMO, a system that can add 200ft lbs of torque to each of the front wheels of a RWD car could be fantastically popular. This thing is just a prototype and wasn't remotely ready to be an actual product back in 2012 but I think the concept is about right: https://www.wired.com/2012/08/hybrid-conversion/
$3,000 to add 400 ft lbs and double city fuel economy.
A "track mode" option that essentially makes the car a 4wd out-of-the-hole and that then doubles city mpg and provides a low-speed "limp home mode" for up to 30 miles would be pretty fantastic. Having the system integrated into or replacing the existing, unpowered wheel hubs would make regenerative braking-based charging a possibility, too.
A 2nd version with double the battery capacity as a plug-in with EV-only mode (daytime driving wo power steering or electric power steering; automatically put trans into neutral) would mean you could do short trips/commutes with no fuel usage and park right up front in the EV spaces, too.
It's way easier to power the rear wheels for a FWD system with the batteries near the rear wheels, but I'd really love to have 400 extra ft lbs of torque and 2 extra wheels of traction for a RWD car; sure would be a conversation piece at a track day event...
Adam
Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
I don't know jack about hybrids, but I can tell you for a fact similar technology is currently been used in EMD and GE
A/C locomotives.
A/C locomotives.
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Schurkey
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Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
"Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System"???
Welcome to 1965 and Turbonique kits advertised in the back of Hot Rod magazine. Rocket fuel, anyone? About a thousand times more fun than this battery-powered crap. About a thousand times more dangerous, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbonique
Welcome to 1965 and Turbonique kits advertised in the back of Hot Rod magazine. Rocket fuel, anyone? About a thousand times more fun than this battery-powered crap. About a thousand times more dangerous, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbonique
Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
Hairyscreech wrote:Yep, looks like just a belt drive. Probably an off the shelf supercharger belt drive so more than up to the job.
Not sure I would want it acting as the starter motor as well as the EV drive, if it was just the EV drive then no issue if the belt goes.
GM's been doing it for years on their electric-assist "soft" hybrids. The motor is just a badass alternator driven by the belt, and when in electric assist, which includes engine-off, the alternator/motor drives the crankshaft via a regular ol' ribbed belt. Which of course drives the car. The biggest oddity is the springloaded belt tensioner that needs to be able to "reverse signs" tension-wise for the whole arrangement to work.
This is why the cogged vs. ribbed oil pump belt thread made me chuckle. You don't want to drive an oil pump with a ribbed belt? GM is driving *cars* with a ribbed belt...
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Hairyscreech
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Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
Not had my head under a lot of new cars so probably missed that, dry to avoid looking too much at the soulless boxes on the dealer forecourts unless I have to.peejay wrote:Hairyscreech wrote:Yep, looks like just a belt drive. Probably an off the shelf supercharger belt drive so more than up to the job.
Not sure I would want it acting as the starter motor as well as the EV drive, if it was just the EV drive then no issue if the belt goes.
GM's been doing it for years on their electric-assist "soft" hybrids. The motor is just a badass alternator driven by the belt, and when in electric assist, which includes engine-off, the alternator/motor drives the crankshaft via a regular ol' ribbed belt. Which of course drives the car. The biggest oddity is the springloaded belt tensioner that needs to be able to "reverse signs" tension-wise for the whole arrangement to work.
This is why the cogged vs. ribbed oil pump belt thread made me chuckle. You don't want to drive an oil pump with a ribbed belt? GM is driving *cars* with a ribbed belt...
There just seems to be an irrational fear of belts, particularly for cam drive belts. If you believe the internet then anything with a belt drive is so unreliable that it will instantly explode killing all occupants. Regardless of them being use to transfer some pretty heavy loads in industry.
100% this kind of system should be looked at as a power adder. This is essentially a bolt on way to an extra 100hp that could work regardless of engine type with no practical loss of reliability or longevity.
Just got to solve the weight issues.....
Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
JMO, but I see hybrids as an evolutionary dead end. Bottom line up front: You’re carrying around two heavy drive trains though you’re using only one at a time.
Commit to full battery electric vehicle (BEV), like the Chevy Bolt, or to fossil. If you go battery and need to make a long trip, just rent a gasoline car for that trip. Even with current battery technology, a plug-in hybrid will have to get juiced every day for a commuter. Sure you can just use the gas engine on those days where you can't hit a charger (or you forgot to plug in), but that seems to be counter to what a hybrid should do. And beyond that, you are paying for those two drive trains.
If, as suggested, this could be used as a power adder, it would be far more practical to use nitrous or get a vehicle that has more power to begin with.
I get the appeal of hybrids to certain individuals; being more about feeling good about being part of the solution, rather than being part of the problem. This despite ample evidence that hybrids aren't entirely environmentally friendly. Let Southpark be your guide on this.
I believe BEV will eventually kill the hybrids since, again, hybrids just don't make sense when you really think on it.
Commit to full battery electric vehicle (BEV), like the Chevy Bolt, or to fossil. If you go battery and need to make a long trip, just rent a gasoline car for that trip. Even with current battery technology, a plug-in hybrid will have to get juiced every day for a commuter. Sure you can just use the gas engine on those days where you can't hit a charger (or you forgot to plug in), but that seems to be counter to what a hybrid should do. And beyond that, you are paying for those two drive trains.
If, as suggested, this could be used as a power adder, it would be far more practical to use nitrous or get a vehicle that has more power to begin with.
I get the appeal of hybrids to certain individuals; being more about feeling good about being part of the solution, rather than being part of the problem. This despite ample evidence that hybrids aren't entirely environmentally friendly. Let Southpark be your guide on this.
I believe BEV will eventually kill the hybrids since, again, hybrids just don't make sense when you really think on it.
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Hairyscreech
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Re: Bolt-on Hybrid Drive System
Some valid points certainly, if your only looking for speed then buying the fastest car in budget is the way to go, if your trying to make an existing street car faster then that would mean an engine swap.
Also a lot of people will want, for example, a fast volvo 240 because it's a volvo 240, making it fast comes second to the desire for a certain vehicle.
On this side of the pond you will be lucky to find an insurance company that will touch cars with nitro installed they have a fit as soon as you bring anything like that up. It can be hard enough to insure a car with an engine swap, a lot of companies will just turn you down flat soon as you bring up engine swaps.
Something to consider is that this would be equivalent to moving the torque curve up 100lb/ft with no other changes. That would take quite a capacity increase to achieve with a lot of cars.
Suggested weight of the system is not actually that bad, similar to the difference between a saloon and cabriolet model for a lot of cars.
The BEV vs Hybrid argument is a complex one, both have real downsides the weight of the hybrid drive is kind of offset by the total mass of the vehicle regardless of powertrain and the bigger battery packs and motors of the pure electric vehicle, the BEV systems are surprisingly heavy when you look at them.
If you take a look at the setup on the new Renault Zoe the battery pack is the size of 2 very large suit cases. It is not lite either. The Tesla model S 85kwh battery is 544KG!
These things will improve but as they do they also make hybrid less of a weight compromise.
Personally I don't think any of the systems are the true answer - Sign me up for the teleporter and I can have half an hour longer in bed.
(Southpark - Are you thinking of the cloud of smug? )
Also a lot of people will want, for example, a fast volvo 240 because it's a volvo 240, making it fast comes second to the desire for a certain vehicle.
On this side of the pond you will be lucky to find an insurance company that will touch cars with nitro installed they have a fit as soon as you bring anything like that up. It can be hard enough to insure a car with an engine swap, a lot of companies will just turn you down flat soon as you bring up engine swaps.
Something to consider is that this would be equivalent to moving the torque curve up 100lb/ft with no other changes. That would take quite a capacity increase to achieve with a lot of cars.
Suggested weight of the system is not actually that bad, similar to the difference between a saloon and cabriolet model for a lot of cars.
The BEV vs Hybrid argument is a complex one, both have real downsides the weight of the hybrid drive is kind of offset by the total mass of the vehicle regardless of powertrain and the bigger battery packs and motors of the pure electric vehicle, the BEV systems are surprisingly heavy when you look at them.
If you take a look at the setup on the new Renault Zoe the battery pack is the size of 2 very large suit cases. It is not lite either. The Tesla model S 85kwh battery is 544KG!
These things will improve but as they do they also make hybrid less of a weight compromise.
Personally I don't think any of the systems are the true answer - Sign me up for the teleporter and I can have half an hour longer in bed.
(Southpark - Are you thinking of the cloud of smug? )