Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

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Frankshaft
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Frankshaft » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:38 am

David Vizard wrote:
Frankshaft wrote:Since the cat is out of the bag, there will be documented proof that its my saying, lol, I call that a reverse turtle.
Seems to me that some posters are a little ticked off about my naming of port energy and specific port energy and it has been said these just don’t describe anything of consequence and it is just a name.

Sorry guys I absolutely have to disagree. No-one counters the naming of the quantity of air flowed as CFm why because it is exactly that – CFM. Nor do they argue that velocity is accurately depicted by the term Ft/Sec. Like it or not port Port Energy is just that – Port energy as is Specific Port energy. The name exactly describes the property.

Give these terms to say, a mathematician, and they would immediately understand what proporty was being described even if the application was not know but ‘Reverse Turtles’? When I write my tech stuff I believe that the naming of anything has to have a real world relevance at least suggesting it’s function. So you feel that your naming of the port and plenum floor treatment should be down to you since you have been doing it for years – and that is since - when. With tongue in cheek here is what Roger named it back in the 1985 ish era.

Active Formation of Turbulent Energy to Resist Fuel Aligning Streaming To Ports Over Two Rough Surfaces. That’s a mouthful so we used the acronym of ‘AFTERFASTPORTS’ which exactly described what the goal was.
Yes, reverse Turtle. I am sure you have seen a turtle. The are above the surface, what I do is below the surface, hence the name, reverse turtle. That's what I call it. Its mostly a gimic. Much like sanding a diamond or a circle on the floor. However, if fuel puddled, it could possibly do something. I have done it back to back, added it to good running intakes after, and there is zero measurable difference. For the record, I wasn't referring to you copying that floor treatment and getting the credit for it.

As far as port energy, you can call it whatever you want. That's fine. Its not a necessary "measurement" or one of the many port dynamics that exist. Someone that understand port "dynamics" knows that. Porting cylinder heads isn't about grinding, sticking it on the flow bench, flowing it, grinding more, sticking it back on there to see if it flows more. Its simply about sizing the port for the given application, creating complimenting areas within the runner, and then tuning the velocity profile to compliment the application. Its different for every application. maximizing what you refer to as port energy, will in most cases create a port that is to fast. One of the most misunderstood "dynamics" in cylinder head porting is velocity. Its not the most velocity you can create, but the correct velocity for the given application, that's the trick, knowing what you need. So, respectfully, I am not a follower of port energy. Sorry. I would blow most peoples minds on here, what I have made for power with every application under the sun. The kicker, at least half or more of the time, the heads NEVER went on a flow bench. One time, I hand ported a set of Indy 600-13x cnc castings from scratch, for a local dyno shop friend of mine, to replace a set of cracked and burnt up castings that BES did originally. My heads made 30 more hp on the same short block, vs BES's cnc'd set. The heads never went on a flow bench. I have a Saenz S-600 for the record, its my 3rd flow bench I have owned over the years. This usually bugs people, when I say this, but, a flow bench is an intermediate learning tool. I know its not, but I make that joke all the time. That quote was actually from Billy Glidden. I have picked up no less than 20 sets of AFR whatever. Fill in the blanks. BBC 357's, sbc 195,s,210's, 220's, 227's, 235's, etc etc, HUGE. Not even kidding. Usually to the tune of 40-60 hp. Why, because they have killer port energy. Reducing it makes WAY more power. Its not even about flow. Recently I re ported a set of RHS 200 heads I did for a 331 sbc road race engine. They were originally ported and had I would bet good port energy. Small port, fairly high flowing port. He built a new 377 short block, redynoed, and it quit a bit early. Re ported the heads for the new application, mainly to adjust the velocity profile, it gained minimal cfm, but made 35 more hp. The port energy as described was lower, but it made 35 more hp. I could go on and on with this stuff. Might not be able to articulate as well, with fancy graphs and the like, but I promise you, I know how to make real power, as well as anyone, and better than most.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Carnut1 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:06 am

The point is that your target airspeed needs to match the application, cubic inches and rpm. It is not about absolute max. port energy because I believe that power will suffer if air speed exceeds a set amount. I can easily see that happening on your high rpm mills with AFR heads. Slow the airspeed and make more power up top. This will also shift the torque curve to higher rpm which is fine depending on application. Volume of the port feeling the bowl has much to do with it as does the airspeed progression throughout the port. Thanks, Charlie

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Frankshaft » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:21 pm

^^^^^ that's my point Charlie. That's why the measurement of what's called port energy, however its defined,.is unnecessary. If your target airspeed is met, with the necessary cross section for the given application, that's the key. Port energy, however that number is derived, will be what it is. It could be either low, or high, depending on where the other factors fall. See where I am coming from? So, it really has no merit.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by MTENGINES » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:56 pm

Frankshaft wrote:^^^^^ that's my point Charlie. That's why the measurement of what's called port energy, however its defined,.is unnecessary. If your target airspeed is met, with the necessary cross section for the given application, that's the key. Port energy, however that number is derived, will be what it is. It could be either low, or high, depending on where the other factors fall. See where I am coming from? So, it really has no merit.
=D> well said.. Too many book writers and internet jockeys spreading useless information, useless because they explain only one part of an equation.

I have always sized my ports and they usually flow what they flow.. On some one off stuff i will have them on and off the flowbench or wetflow bench just to see how a shape or profile responds as i make my way to the size i want. Sometimes i have stopped on the way to the proper size to have a port digitised. A flow bench is a tool to show you if your change increased airspeed or lost or the short turn shape works well..

But in the end there is only so much you can do with certain castings, and with my experience dyno results mixed with track data show the modification made to the heads far better than any flow tool.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by DaveMcLain » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:07 pm

Frankshaft wrote:^^^^^ that's my point Charlie. That's why the measurement of what's called port energy, however its defined,.is unnecessary. If your target airspeed is met, with the necessary cross section for the given application, that's the key. Port energy, however that number is derived, will be what it is. It could be either low, or high, depending on where the other factors fall. See where I am coming from? So, it really has no merit.
Maybe the magic formula for "Port Energy" has a variable for engine size and rpm.....

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Frankshaft » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:40 pm

^^^^, then its being manipulated to "fit" . We are dealing with the laws of physics when we are dealing with the internal dynamics of a cylinder head port. We can't adjust a formula to make it fit, that's not how it works.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by David Vizard » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:22 pm

Frankshaft wrote:^^^^, then its being manipulated to "fit" .
Consider the - 'then its being manipulated to "fit' here. We are manipulating the port to fit the best configuration not manipulating the configuration to fit the port that was ground without a full comprehension of what was needed.

We are dealing with the laws of physics when we are dealing with the internal dynamics of a cylinder head port. We can't adjust a formula to make it fit, that's not how it works.
I hate to say this because it proves I have failed to make a good enough explanation of what is involved but this statement, unlike most so far made, is accurate. It matters little what you believe as it has no effect on the reality of the situation - whether it's understood or not.

Frankshaft and MTENGINES - the way you are using your flow benches and crunching the data is exactly what is degrading your flow benches usfulness toward finding power quicker. However I suspect that the amount of time I would have to devote to convincing you guys otherwise is beyond what I can afford.

I can see from your comments that you try to achieve a certain balance of characteristics but it is ultimately down to guess not numbers for such so as to quantify it and thereby use the data as a lynchpin determinant.

Many years ago a top engineer in a company I was consulting for made the comment "if you can measure it you can improve it" Never a truer word!
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by AMXstocker1 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:33 pm

How would that work in say a NHRA super-stock car where lets say you have a 390 inch engine that needs to make power at 8500rpm but by rules your limited to a 185cc port, in this case i assume you spend alot of time trying to slow air down because you need the small volume to move enough air to support the power with out running into sonic choke. perhaps a poor example but this is what i thought of when Chad was talking about texturing the port causing some drag on the air.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by MTENGINES » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:28 pm

David Vizard wrote:
Frankshaft wrote:^^^^, then its being manipulated to "fit" .
Consider the - 'then its being manipulated to "fit' here. We are manipulating the port to fit the best configuration not manipulating the configuration to fit the port that was ground without a full comprehension of what was needed.

We are dealing with the laws of physics when we are dealing with the internal dynamics of a cylinder head port. We can't adjust a formula to make it fit, that's not how it works.
I hate to say this because it proves I have failed to make a good enough explanation of what is involved but this statement, unlike most so far made, is accurate. It matters little what you believe as it has no effect on the reality of the situation - whether it's understood or not.

Frankshaft and MTENGINES - the way you are using your flow benches and crunching the data is exactly what is degrading your flow benches usfulness toward finding power quicker. However I suspect that the amount of time I would have to devote to convincing you guys otherwise is beyond what I can afford.

I can see from your comments that you try to achieve a certain balance of characteristics but it is ultimately down to guess not numbers for such so as to quantify it and thereby use the data as a lynchpin determinant.

Many years ago a top engineer in a company I was consulting for made the comment "if you can measure it you can improve it" Never a truer word!
I can assure you if you have ported enough sets of heads, you have yohr own formulas to come up with the size, taper and shape to get you close... The flowbench is a tool that can verify your work.. When i try for more power yes i will throw the head back on the bench and make an adjustment.. I dont go at this completely blind.
A flowbench is a tool.. A tool can lie to you.. I size my ports to what i came up with. And the end result is the flow. Sometimes i try different seat angles, back cuts, valve heads etc.. And some pick up cfm and air speed, while others can lose air speed.. It depends on what im after.
You can sell people as much information as they want, but if they dont understand how to use it it is worthless to them. Im sure you would be surprised at the level of racing programs and organizations i have been involved in/worked for..

But i dont write books, so i must not be credible. I dont need to sell my services over the internet, i can chose my clients at will. Or defer them to somewhere else.

And for you to say my work is downright guessing pisses me off. I have thousands of hours using flowbench, wetflow, surfcam, mastercam, solidworks etc.

Maybe one day you can convince me.. I am all ears for learning, i wouldnt have the knowledge i have without learning. But as a mechanical engineer, some things we see or do, we might overcomplicate to get the same result.. First rule i learned at UNC Charlotte was KISS.... Keep It Simple Stupid.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by cspeier » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:47 pm

Speaking of Super Stock. You work on lots of Super Stock heads and your theories of a head needing X amount of area to make X amount of power goes right out the window! It'a about the velocity and manipulation to handle that velocity.

I target how much cfm I need to make the power I want. I then target my airspeed. The CSA is whatever it takes to achieve it. HOWEVER, the more efficient that head is, the smaller that area will actually be to make the power.

It's all my opinion and not afraid to attach my name.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Carnut1 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:05 pm

cspeier wrote:Speaking of Super Stock. You work on lots of Super Stock heads and your theories of a head needing X amount of area to make X amount of power goes right out the window! It'a about the velocity and manipulation to handle that velocity.

I target how much cfm I need to make the power I want. I then target my airspeed. The CSA is whatever it takes to achieve it. HOWEVER, the more efficient that head is, the smaller that area will actually be to make the power.

It's all my opinion and not afraid to attach my name.


" manipulation to handle that velocity" I had two conversations today about just that. Interesting how different head guys tackle the same problem.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by GARY C » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:24 pm

I think some here have done this long enough that they have "learned" what is needed for a given application, I just wonder how much easier that learning curve would have been if they had a program that was designed for that?

I am willing to bet there are many head porters and engine builders out there that know they don't know everything and are willing to venture into different programs to advance their R&D, then again maybe everyone from Bubba Red Neck to F1 engineers just hook laptops to their cars to look cool?

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Stan Weiss » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:47 am

OK, so anyone willing to share what velocity(s) they are looking for, or how they come up with the CSA they want?

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by KnightEngines » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:06 am

Ballpark CSA .38-.4^" per 100hp for a V8.
Less if the port is a good un (raised runner, no pinch, no savage short turn).
More if it's a crap design (23 deg std location chev).

I size on the conservative side, flow to check I got the cfm I need (not all the cfm I can get, just all that I need) & that the port is stable & behaving as I'd like it too. If in doubt I'll bolt the intake up to see how it affects stability (almost never makes it worse, but can improve a port that's borderline for stability - so you don't go chasing unicorns trying to get it stable when the intake is gonna do it for you).
I'll probe the port, but that in itself can cause a unicorn search - fps on the bench ain't a running motor. But the probe can help identify where it's too fast or has stability problems, where it's lazy & where it's best to take more if you feel you need more csa in a section.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by paulzig » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:46 am

David Vizard wrote:Like it or not port Port Energy is just that – Port energy as is Specific Port energy. The name exactly describes the property.
What is the unit of measurement for this property though? Joules, KiloJoules and how is it measured?

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