Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

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AMXstocker1
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by AMXstocker1 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:09 am

what are you using to apply the rough texture? is it just a curse carbide, or are you damaging the bit in any fashion to get the desired effect?

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by nickpohlaandp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:46 pm

David Vizard wrote:...From the pic below you can see that this intake is no beauty queen. Just a working piece using the surface finishing techniques of RH, Chad and Larry plus a few others with a similar mind set. tests were blow through with a 1050 cfm carb simulator and with 1.2 ports open...
That's some interesting work on the floor. It looks like some carefully planned divots drilled in at very specific locations all over the intake floor with a 3/16 drill bit :D . I'm going to assume the purpose of that is to create a turbulence in the plenum to aid in better air/fuel mixing? When doing the rest of the finish inside of the ports, you are using a carbide bit? To achieve the proper results is there a specific burr that you suggest using, and is it done with low speed, light pressure? Thank you for your information.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by nickpohlaandp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:57 pm

AMXstocker1 wrote:what are you using to apply the rough texture? is it just a curse carbide, or are you damaging the bit in any fashion to get the desired effect?
This is what I'm dying to know. Is it a single cut, double cut, either of the two with the edges dulled on a grinding wheel, what?
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by autogear » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:10 pm

get some old rotary files/burrs etc...and try it yourself on a junkyard aluminum head until you find your own path you like?

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by nickpohlaandp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:15 pm

autogear wrote:get some old rotary files/burrs etc...and try it yourself on a junkyard aluminum head until you find your own path you like?
HMMMMMMMM, I just so happen to have a 4.6L Ford 32V aluminum cylinder head that I'm not going to do anything with.... or should I say, wasn't going to do anything with. Hahaha. To save a little time, could you possibly recommend whether I should try a double cut or single cut burr? I'm guessing double cut, but I honestly have no clue.
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by autogear » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:30 pm

I would take a burr, try varying the speed of the cutter and the pressure until you get the beginnings of what you want to see. Be methodical in your changes. When the port is full of your handiwork, you can smooth it out and try again, since you only have 4 ports to play with. DV has implied that its in your wrist, and Ive seen references to RPM as well. My assumption is you want the cutter to kind of 'skitter' around.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by gvx » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:53 pm

I have a TIG touch and I I'm tempted two build a pattern of quarter inch bubbles on the porch floor to have the same effect seems like it would be easier be more precise grid pattern than a hand drill

Although the difference would probably be minimal I would think the raised pattern might have more of a disturbance or diffusion effect than the concave dimple pattern where that air was making a abrupt turn
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Smoke ring » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:08 pm

Carnut1 wrote:There is more than one thing to keep in mind, airflow across the surface, fuel flow across the surface, the amount of liquid fuel, the evaporation rate of said fuel, the amount of heat transferred to the fuel and air due to different textures etc! I personally think the better your fuel prep the smaller the gains will be on surface treatment.

I have been following along the texture threads on here going back into old posts trying to better understand why it works, I always feel it's important to understand why something works and this one I believe needs a process of elimination to narrow it down. One test that I would like to see is a port injected engine tested without it, and then tested with everything before the injector carbide textured to see the results. Then we're mostly dealing with only the dry flow area to get an understanding if its mostly fuel specific or if there's more to it. I realize there is still going to be some fuel and air mixed traveling through the manifold in waves but this would be as close to getting a dry test in a running engine I can think of.

To study the wet flow side of it, I thought about taking a flat piece of metal and texturing it, then adding three sides to it with a see through composite and making a wet flow "box" where you could hopefully study with vacuum applied how the wet flow is interacting with the one metal textured surface along a good length of port area. I think you need a constant source for controlling the liquid into it on a valve to simulate inside a running engine and probably variable depression to find if something suddenly occurs at a specific area seen in a live engine. I don't have time to build and test this idea maybe someone else could?
I would get a high speed video camera so video could be slowed way down because it's possible the naked eye could miss the fine detail of what's occurring assuming you can see anything at all.

Has testing already been done on injected IR systems for before/after tests?

I have not seen results here in my searches how methanol engines respond to this texture. Chad or anyone have any?

Also Larry or Chad had posted on another thread that this gets done directional, and it will have sharp enough edges to just start to hook your skin running a finger acrossed it. Those tiny sharp edges could make a difference from another guy doing it who doesn't have those edges. Just another small detail to think about. My hands hurt just thinking about doing this with a bent cutter harmonically beating my hands to more death!

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Lenni AMC » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:38 pm

So were would you have the sharp edges on a
1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 firing order ?

would it be sharp on 7 and radius on 5 ?

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by nickpohlaandp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:42 pm

Smoke ring wrote:
Carnut1 wrote:...My hands hurt just thinking about doing this with a bent cutter harmonically beating my hands to more death!
I'm with you on that one, but willing to give it a try. I'm trying to figure out how to bend a burr enough where it will deliver results, but not so much to the point where I have a small mace flying around on the end of my die grinder shaft.
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by GARY C » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:27 pm

maxracesoftware ...like Chad posted ... i put a new Egg-shaped Oval Alumina Burr 's shaft supported on both ends
just under Egg , then hit the Burr's shaft until i get 0.003 to max of 0.005 bend in the shaft
then i take that same Burr and try to chip the new teeth just right to get the finish i need

then you need to use a constant Torque/RPM speed controller
at a relatively Low RPM , and hold the Electric Grinder just right in your hands
loose enough , but with full control

next you need to orienate the Head Chamber to the rough cut you are making
you want a directional Harpon-like effect ... you want it to catch your finger's skin as you move you finger across the texture, but only in the incoming or against incoming Flow direction
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49747&p=669940#p669940

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by nickpohlaandp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

GARY C wrote:
maxracesoftware ...like Chad posted ... i put a new Egg-shaped Oval Alumina Burr 's shaft supported on both ends
just under Egg , then hit the Burr's shaft until i get 0.003 to max of 0.005 bend in the shaft
then i take that same Burr and try to chip the new teeth just right to get the finish i need

then you need to use a constant Torque/RPM speed controller
at a relatively Low RPM , and hold the Electric Grinder just right in your hands
loose enough , but with full control

next you need to orienate the Head Chamber to the rough cut you are making
you want a directional Harpon-like effect ... you want it to catch your finger's skin as you move you finger across the texture, but only in the incoming or against incoming Flow direction
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49747&p=669940#p669940
Thanks Gary. I might try this with a Harbor Freight burr before I spend $40 on a good one to "modify"... just to see how things work out. I'm assuming we're talking a standard length burr as well, right? Not a 6" burr.
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Carnut1 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:25 pm

Sharp 6" burr, the bend will come first time it grabs. Speed makes a difference as does pressure.
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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by Curtis Mc » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:29 pm

Lenni AMC wrote:So were would you have the sharp edges on a
1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 firing order ?

would it be sharp on 7 and radius on 5 ?
Need to be careful here - what engine? This thread started as a 'sharing' and potential 'how-to' with a SBF as the example. A SBC has been mentioned already. My point here is really about the cylinder numbering.

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Re: Windsor Super Victor – plenums, port forms & finishes Vs flow

Post by GARY C » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:34 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:
GARY C wrote:
maxracesoftware ...like Chad posted ... i put a new Egg-shaped Oval Alumina Burr 's shaft supported on both ends
just under Egg , then hit the Burr's shaft until i get 0.003 to max of 0.005 bend in the shaft
then i take that same Burr and try to chip the new teeth just right to get the finish i need

then you need to use a constant Torque/RPM speed controller
at a relatively Low RPM , and hold the Electric Grinder just right in your hands
loose enough , but with full control

next you need to orienate the Head Chamber to the rough cut you are making
you want a directional Harpon-like effect ... you want it to catch your finger's skin as you move you finger across the texture, but only in the incoming or against incoming Flow direction
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49747&p=669940#p669940
Thanks Gary. I might try this with a Harbor Freight burr before I spend $40 on a good one to "modify"... just to see how things work out. I'm assuming we're talking a standard length burr as well, right? Not a 6" burr.
I would think a long one would get a more gental bend to be able to get into the runners but I am not sure, that's about all I use anymore except for chambers. I found the long shank works best for me on normal porting with the hand piece in my right hand and let the shaft float between my fingers on my left hand for better control...it takes a little calas build up :)

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