Tunnel Ram and 660 Holleys

[Barry_R]

Joe won....

[SandRacer]

Well I'm getting closer to giving this setup a tryout! Hoping the 30 year old technology still works. (Edelbrock Pro Ram II and a pair of 660's).

I didn't realize how many hours of porting could go into getting the manifold to fit just perfect. A little Splash zone and a whole lot of fitting and refitting, not to mention cutting the manifold to get to the top portion then re-welding. I can't imagine how much money I'd have in this project if I had to pay to get the porting done, buying linkage and carbs, air cleaners, not to mention the manifold itself! I hope it runs!!!!!

Tom

[Troy Patterson]

Joe won....

I realized when I wrote my last post it'd go clean over the heads of some. It wasn't a "monkey joke" -for those of you who comprehend that reference.

I did acknowledged that he won , did I not? The point is that although Joe won, and what's his name took second, it wasn't the phenomenal victory some of you think. There were some who did not bother to enter and give up valuable trade secrets, who certainly had every chance of winning.

For my part, I did not give all that I was capable of to Tom Nelson because I knew in advance the engine would be torn down and made public, or at least scrutinized by people who had no obligation to sign non-disclosure agreements.

Ya, Joe won the step test dyno racing contest. Da! What's your point brainyack?:? -and I mean that in the best way. :^o

I'm really not taking myself too seriously here, just having fun.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Troy Patterson]

Joe won....

Barry, let me put it another way;

...

438,004 x 12.37 rpm.

!!!!!

! #@$**# ? A/C=(Wx3b-A/C)

...

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Barry_R]

Troy,
Don't worry - - I don't take any of this too seriously! The whole idea of this sport/hobby/obsession is to have fun. After all - we're building Hot Rod motors - not curing deseases or solving world hunger And that is a most impressive collection of emoticons!

We all get the same amount of time and the same set of rules for most any contest (assuming a degree of fairness). What we do from there is up to us. Nelson brought his best piece to the show within the context of available time, talent, luck, and budget. So did Joe - and his best piece was better than everybody elses - that is resounding enough on any given day. One thing for sure - you can't win if you don't compete - at least you were there!

A trade secret is not likely to be revealed by a magazine photo, and you can't yet give away the things you will learn tomorrow.

I've also entered that same contest the last couple years. I have had my ass handed to me both times by varying degrees. Both motors were the very best I could deliver within my limits of time, talent, luck, and budget. I have learned a bunch in the process, and hope to take another shot at it this year as well. I will do my best and try to learn some more...

I worked for a carburetor company once, many years ago. Turns out those old guys were not really very dumb at all...

[Troy Patterson]

Barry, ya it was a learning experience for sure, and an opportunity to do things that I might not have had the opportunity to do, at least by that point in time.

I do enjoy the competition because it allows you to see how you rank relative to others. It was a good time had by all.

Best of luck to you in the future, and I'm primarily a Ford guy also.

For the record, I haven't aided in Nelson's Engine Masters efforts since 2002. I don't know how he's faired since.

My knowledge is based upon dem ol' timers, I juz took it fo a ride someplace elz. Youz gotz to 'member, every developsment can be improvesed upon, and will for ever bees.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Transman]

Those old Pro Ram II's were nice. I ran one years ago with a pair of home-brewed 660's on a little Turbo-headed 304". Like a fool, I sold the carbs, and later the intake. Wish I'd kept them, but ended up going with a Hogan's and a pair of gas 750's on my new 331" with a set of Canfield heads. Chad Speier took over finishing the heads for me when I figured my time was better spent elsewhere. He was able to squeeze another 5 CFM out of them at .700" from what I had, and they had a very nice CSA/velocity/final port volume to them. The combo looked awfully good when he ran it through Larry's program. I'm hoping to make just a little under 700 HP with it.

[Troy Patterson]

Nelson had modified a Smokey Ram which never had a chance to get worked out, nor a highly modified Victor 4x4 I had prep'd. I have no doubt, my modified Victor 4X4 would have been worth another 20-30 lb.s torque and as much horsepower, but Nelson was chicken and we ran out time.

Furthermore, I'll point out the carb ran full 1:1 primary to secondary throttle actuation. Contrary to David Freiburger's account that the adjustable 1:1 throttle linkage was there to retard the opening of the secondaries, it WAS THERE to allow me to open all four at exactly the same time! No progression whatsoever, W.O.T. at less than 2500 rpm (to allow the dyno to begin recording cleanly at 2500 rpm). The motor purred like a kitten! It almost sounded as though the dyno wasn't going to pull it down.

How many days/months did you spend on your winning motor?

What is the world coming to when a guy has to quote himself. lol

I'll have to admit, the Smokey Ram was a bit of a cobbled up mess , but it coulda run with a few more hours to spend. They are a great manifold on the right application - with the right carbs.

But that Victor 4X4 I radically modified would have taken the prize. It is / was modified similarly to the way smart people have discussed single plane manifold modification on this forum, and then some more. Because I've been doing this for more than 27 years myself, (does that qualify me as an old timer? I have experienced again and again the gains I estimate for the Victor 4X4 intake I modified for that Eng. Mstr's engine. And, I'm be'in conservative. To bad Tom hadn't opted to try it, he didn't know a good thing when he saw it.

Tom had ordered two cams, bad and worse (but I am kind of an opinionated guy when it comes to cams). I'm not sure which one we ran.

Just after the Engine Masters, the good ol' boys at Barry Grant made Tom a "real sweet" deal on carburetors, and although I was a half mile from Tom's shop, help'n him out tuning his motors on the dyno, it was too good a deal for him to pass up.

So Joe, how long did you dyno / do development for your Winning 2002 Engine Masters competition? I seem to recall that you wore out several cheaper engines working out your combination, before building the competition engine over a six month period. How many hours does that add up to?

Does anybody think "Cup" or ProStock cars would be competitive runnin' 30 year old stuff? !

I'm hijacking the thread ain't I? But Joe, a serious question deserves a serious answer.

Maybe, I'm a little bitter and taking it out on you, but I could, but won't name a few names in Los Angeles that tried to give me beat'n by lying / stealing and cheating. I guess I wasn't a bird of that feather, so understandably, they wanted to rout me out - get rid of the competition, criminal as it was.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Troy Patterson]

I got off track didn't I?

The issue with many large volume intake manifolds is that the metering signal deminishes in proportion to and with the increase in internal volume. Coupled with a big cam, the engine often doesn't "come on the cam" until high in the rpm range.

This is really a misconception, and this is a big secret. I have witnessed time and time again, people installing progressively higher and higher stall converters attempting to overcome a bog off the line (in the case of drag racing) attributing it to this vague issue of "coming on the cam." Granted, it is the case with some applications, but not as often as it is attributed, or mistakenly believed to be.

What IF? What if you motor didn't wait until 6000 rpm to "come on the cam?"

I dyno'd one of my new fangled modern carbs against a carb built / modified by the engine's builder. It was a chop in the SF Valley - LA, CA. His conventionally modified carb could not handle the dyno load on the engine in question under, from memory - like 3700 rpm. It was a 450ish inch 428 CJ. Ma new fangled modern carburbator took full throttle 1100 rpms lower making 25 lb.s torque more at 2600 rpm, than at 3700, and exceeded his tq. number at that point by a few. The cam peaked at like 5400 - 5500 rpms. Go figure.

He told the customer (in front of me) "it wasn't worth anything." Dang, man! Fortunately, the man with the money was smarter than the manwith the mouth and purchased several carburetors.

Very often conclusions are arrived at based upon incomplete information, or flat out misinformation. The point of all this tyraid is that the manifold is less important than the carburetors calibration or tune. Different manifolds, due to design require different fuel curves than others. Those less sophisticated about the black art of carburetor building / design / calibration issues will wrongly evaluate a manifold (or cam, header, cylinder head, etc.) unknowingly based upon how near or far a given manifolds fuel curve requirement is to the fuel curve provided in the carburetor.

We're not talking about main jets and pump cams here, but a ho lotta factors all specific and relevent to the application to which it is applied.

Dual carbs on tunnel rams are often more forgiving and allow a racer to run a larger manifold than a single carb application might be happy with.

Good luck.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[bigjoe1]

To set the record straight, I did use another 355 engine for cam testing only. I ran four cams in it, just to get the duration short enough to peak out by 6500 RPM. Once I had an idea of what cam to use. I only made 20 dyno pulls on the engine that I won the contest with. I did not go for low RPM or mid range power at all, I just went for max HP at 6500 RPM. It just so happens that I also made one of the highest torque outputs TOO.It is too bad there is so much misinformation out there. OH well.
JOE SHERMAN RACING

[mallow415]

So can the t/r say a eldebrock victor ram and a sheetmetal top for a single carb be worth anything or more trouble than it is worth?

[Troy Patterson]

Joe, I don't mean to rain on your parade, ya did good! but ya kind a took a shot at my comments regarding my area of expertise, intentionally or not. If I could have, I'd spent a year developing my combination. I have suffered the abuse of threatened egos of many an engine builder who couldn't wrap their brains around the results I was getting.

A chassis dyno guy dyno'd a carb of mine, it showed 15 lb.s tq and whatever hp - don't remember. We drove it with my 185 lb.s added to the weight of the car, easily cancelling a 15 lb tq gain - and unlike with his carb, it burned rubber effortlessly with my carb. Because he couldn't reconcile where the extra throttle response and torque was coming from, he rejected the validity of the test drive and dyno results, and he was the dyno operator in his shop, on his car. Go figure. P.S. although his job was dyno tuning race cars, it was I who showed him how to tune high speed air bleeds, and netted him 40 lb.s tq (at the rear tires) and some small hp on his own drag car.

But others are worse resorting to lies and manipulation. I call it the "Lephe-vers syndrome" or the "Ak-ared syndrome." Basically what that is, is a person who can't give someone else credit for fear of loosing their own credibility or standing, so with them an idea is only good if they can claim it their own.

Ya still side stepped the part of the question regarding how long ya spent, but it's okay.

So can the t/r say a eldebrock victor ram and a sheetmetal top for a single carb be worth anything or more trouble than it is worth?

Personally, I love the tunnel ram. Whether or not it's more trouble than they're worth depends on you. Go for it and let us know.


Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[aedcarburetors]

just to hijack the thread a little further .......the engine masters challenge is a fantastic comp and has generated a vast amount of interest... just as an aside to it .... what do people think of a similar contest..but a engine tuners comp......where the competition supplys long motors....the competitor supplys manifold... carb , spacers , sparkplugs etc ........ the details of the test engine could be held secret untill say 1 to 2 months before the competition date..... specs are then sent to each competitor.....etc ....what do u guys think ... it would keep cost down..........would still sort out the apples and oranges .....u could have a bigger field .... and also would be less expessive for us out here in australia or any other part of the word to enter into ... its just a thought...what do you guys think

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Back to the discussion of the Holley Center Squirter 660's. I love them. I too need to be kicked for selling the pair that I had and that were very sucessful in an engine years back.

I see that the Original Poster was concerned about using wires to tune the Idle Circuits. Actually that is one of the things I did love about those carbs. It is so easy to go leaner or go richer by just inserting a couple of V sections of copper wire.

If you are running two of them like is posted in this thread, You may want to do a little minor tweeking on the primary throttle arm to allow the carb to open on the primaries a little further before the secondaries kick in. That will greatly improve the pit and low speed driving experience.

This carb and the 750 is small enough physically to install them straight on the manifold end to end when using the smaller side hung float fuel bowls. I modified those to permit me to feed fuel into either side, NNad I drilled and tapped the top of the bowls to permit me to vent them direct with some small 1/8 pipe 45 deg and 90 deg fittings, so I had no fuel slosh into the carb or anywhere during some very hard G launches at 8,000 plus RPM with a clutch and big tires.

If it can help you at all, I will see if I can dig up some pics of that set-up the way I ran it, and get them scanned to a dsick so I can upload and send to you?

Unbelievable is that those two modified 660's with 850 plates were enough for well over 900 motor horses. Very responsive.

Ed

[SandRacer]

Ed and anyone that has some info on the setup of these carbs; I welcome any info! One thing I was kicking around was to rob the metering blocks from the primarys of a couple of old 600 holleys I have and put them on the secondaries of the 660's. What do you guys think? Should I start out with the plates in the rear? What about going to center pivot floats, any gain here?

I'm starting to get a little excited about making this setup scream!

Tom