power difference between different brand cams

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby bigjoe1 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:37 pm

It seems that at least some of you are shocked to find out that many cam grinders just made a copy of someone elses lobes. I know lots of them did it




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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby GARY C » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:43 pm

blwilliams wrote:Here is a question I have pondered more than once.
Depending on the cam grinding machine wear and tear, how close is the indexing between cylinders?
We degree the cam off of #1 cyl, how close is that IO EC figure on the other 7 cylinders?
If a machine is worn and unable to duplicate from cyl to cyl or even lobe to lobe, that can't be good.
Even if just the lobe separation varies from cyl to cyl, that is going to not be optimal.
Just wondering.

If you don't have access to a cam dr then you would need to degree I & E on all 7 cylinders to know for sure.

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby DaveMcLain » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:54 pm

GARY C wrote:
blwilliams wrote:Here is a question I have pondered more than once.
Depending on the cam grinding machine wear and tear, how close is the indexing between cylinders?
We degree the cam off of #1 cyl, how close is that IO EC figure on the other 7 cylinders?
If a machine is worn and unable to duplicate from cyl to cyl or even lobe to lobe, that can't be good.
Even if just the lobe separation varies from cyl to cyl, that is going to not be optimal.
Just wondering.

If you don't have access to a cam dr then you would need to degree I & E on all 7 cylinders to know for sure.


The camshaft itself can vary some from lobe to lobe but those variances will most likely be less than the variances you can see in a typical block.

I had some cam lobe designs done by Mike Ingram who is on this forum, masters made and cams ground on a Berco by Demos' Cams using those masters. When I compare the design data to actual data from a plotted cam it is amazingly close. I think that by creating the master directly from the design data instead of having to make a model lobe a lot of errors are eliminated.

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby In-Tech » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:03 pm

blwilliams wrote:Here is a question I have pondered more than once.
Depending on the cam grinding machine wear and tear, how close is the indexing between cylinders?
We degree the cam off of #1 cyl, how close is that IO EC figure on the other 7 cylinders?
If a machine is worn and unable to duplicate from cyl to cyl or even lobe to lobe, that can't be good.
Even if just the lobe separation varies from cyl to cyl, that is going to not be optimal.
Just wondering.


The index plate covers most of the cyl to cyl CL variances, after that it is up to the grinder/operator to change anything beyond the index plate. IIRC the model is made real "journal" size and then turned into a large master... and also IIRC a grinder/person will deadwheel #1 intake vs dowel and based on the core will make changes from there. It is extremely easy to make a mistake during the grinding process when you are doing a "one off".
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby RamblerRebel6 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:54 am

So, it wasn't to exciting, the Erson cam made for all practical purposes, the same exact power. One other thing, when we dynode it last, we dumped the break in oil, and tried Shafer synthetic 5-50, he swears by the stuff, runs it in everything. It made more power, we didn't do that this time, and it matched peak hp. So, is it possible the Erson cam makes a few more peak hp, I think it does. So, for losing 20-50hp, ahhh, no.


Oh, you rascal you. :D But thanks for the stimulation of the aging brain cells of mine. #-o

My other hypothesis would have gotten into metallurgical differences between the construction of the cams rather than the numbers. But I'm about as weak on that subject as I am brain surgery.

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby CamKing » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:36 am

cstraub wrote:And how one cam company ends up with "new Lobe designs" borrowed from another. I've learned more about integrity in this thread than anything.

I get a few guys mad at me every year, because I refuse to copy someone else's design. Even if it's a design from a company that is no longer in business, I won't do it. I'll study a design, and design something better, but I have no desire to make a copy. that at best, would only be as good as the original. I don't get up in the morning, and go to work, to be "as good" as someone else.
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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby BlitzA64 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:54 am

I get a few guys mad at me every year, because I refuse to copy someone else's design. Even if it's a design from a company that is no longer in business, I won't do it. I'll study a design, and design something better, but I have no desire to make a copy. that at best, would only be as good as the original. I don't get up in the morning, and go to work, to be "as good" as someone else.
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Why I use this guy ^^^^^

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby BigBro74 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:13 pm

I don't know if they did their stuff in house, when I dealt with them in early 2000 they had me contact a guy named Don Johanson for custom cams...I don't know if that was good are bad.


do you happen to know-Is/was this Johanson related to "Howard Johanson" that started Howards Cams?

I like history :D
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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby GARY C » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:37 pm

BigBro74 wrote:
I don't know if they did their stuff in house, when I dealt with them in early 2000 they had me contact a guy named Don Johanson for custom cams...I don't know if that was good are bad.


do you happen to know-Is/was this Johanson related to "Howard Johanson" that started Howards Cams?

I like history :D
Jason

I don't know and the cell # I have for him was not working last I tried. Larry the guy I dealt with at Chet's told me that where most speed junkies have a mill, lath and flow bench in their garage, Don was the first one he ever met with his own cam grinding machine, I found that interesting. I never cam dr one of his cams so I have no idea where he was on quality, on track performance was good although they were not tested against another so they could have been lacking and out of the 5 cams he did for me we never had and valve train issues but these were in the .670 lift range 7500 shift 1/8 mile set ups. I did push them to 8000 but the car was not faster so there was no need.

BTW, I don't know f Larry is still with Herbert racing but Doug is usually easy to get a hold of and he may know...If he is still in business I haven't talked to any of them in years.

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby PFC1 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:26 am

CamKing wrote:
cstraub wrote:

I get a few guys mad at me every year, because I refuse to copy someone else's design. Even if it's a design from a company that is no longer in business, I won't do it. I'll study a design, and design something better, but I have no desire to make a copy. that at best, would only be as good as the original. I don't get up in the morning, and go to work, to be "as good" as someone else.


This is the most impressive thing I read in this whole post. This is my thinking as well when it comes to race oriented motors.
Pullin' for Christ

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby HotRodRay » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:00 pm

Ive often wondered why "cam twist" never enters unto these conversations.
Theres lots involved in twist.

Now theyre even grinding "4 corner" cams for fuel distribution. Decades ago we had different cylinders ground to different lobes. It worked.

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby pdq67 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:58 pm

I sure miss UDHarold here!

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby redliner » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:51 pm

CamKing wrote:
cstraub wrote:And how one cam company ends up with "new Lobe designs" borrowed from another. I've learned more about integrity in this thread than anything.

I get a few guys mad at me every year, because I refuse to copy someone else's design. Even if it's a design from a company that is no longer in business, I won't do it. I'll study a design, and design something better, but I have no desire to make a copy. that at best, would only be as good as the original. I don't get up in the morning, and go to work, to be "as good" as someone else.

I like that attitude!!!

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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby MELWAY » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:17 pm

UD Harold also once said if the copier didn't know the radius of grinding wheel when original cam was made it would create errors into new master cam
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Re: power difference between different brand cams

Postby pdq67 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:34 pm

CamKing wrote:
cstraub wrote:And how one cam company ends up with "new Lobe designs" borrowed from another. I've learned more about integrity in this thread than anything.

I get a few guys mad at me every year, because I refuse to copy someone else's design. Even if it's a design from a company that is no longer in business, I won't do it. I'll study a design, and design something better, but I have no desire to make a copy. that at best, would only be as good as the original. I don't get up in the morning, and go to work, to be "as good" as someone else.


Heck, send them over to, "Delta", if I have the name right?

pdq67


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