molylube and oil contamination for ring seal

[steve cowan]

hi guys,
finally finished that 383 heap of junk with the sleeve in #6 used keyserts and nulon head gasket repair
everything seems ok at the moment

anyway i am curious on your thoughts on moly assembly lube mixing with the run in oil and contaminate cylinder walls for ring seal
obviously it depends how much you use
I made a point of using a minimum as required on mains,big ends etc but when i drained the oil after initial start up and cut the filter
the oil tends to be a tinge of black with what looks like graphite spec
the air fuel was a constant 14.5 - 14.7 so i dont think it is fuel contaminating the oil
what i am curious about - do you think it matters,what have you guys seen on engines that you do
i dont believe i have a problem it is more curiosity thats all
thanks for any comments
steve c

[mag2555]

The only time I feel safe in not having Moly lube not effect my new rings from breaking in right is when I have Plateau honed the cylinders which makes for no break in needs.

How much seat pressure are you running on the Cam?

[KnightEngines]

The only place I use moly lube is on the oil pump gears - so it primes fast.
The rest gets torco MPZ.

Coz yeah, too much moly in there will slow down ring bedding.

On the subject of ring bed in - who else has seen E85 engines take twice as long to seal up as petrol engines?
Pump fuel engines are sealed up tight in about 10 minutes of load on the dyno, a stubborn one may take 20.
E85 can take a solid 30-20 minutes of load & often they aren't sealed up nice till we get part way through the power pulls/tuning.

Can anything be done to get them to bed faster?

[steve cowan]

hi mag,
solid roller so no moly obviously on lifters
tony,
i have previously used joe gibbs assembly grease but the stuff is weird it dont melt
on this one i just did i used penrite assembly which has moly in it
thanks for the tip on torco i will use that in future,do you use it on flat tappet stuff or do you use the moly grease deal?

[mag2555]

Well E85 does not even have the lube properties of gas so this would lead me to think that it's the cooler combustion temps that makes for slower ring setting.
Are your oil temps slower to come up on E85?

On some motors where the pump body is sitting in the oil there's no need to pack the gears, but if I do it's not Moly that's my pick, its disc brake bearing grease!

I am also a firm believer in using only ATF on cylinder walls and rings lands for lube.

Let's face it folks the right way to break in a non roller Cam set up with over 135 psi of seat pressure is to take out the inner spring , be it round wire or crappy flat damper, and yup it's yet more work to be done !

During the Muscle car days the factory's never used Moly break in lube on Cams and only rearly had issues with such, and this was with some motors having 330 psi of open pressure for a street motor!

[Circlotron]

On some motors where the pump body is sitting in the oil there's no need to pack the gears, but if I do it's not Moly that's my pick, its disc brake bearing grease!

Doesn't disc brake bearing grease have clay in it???

[MadBill]

Isn't it preferable to use a low melting point material like Vaseline that won't plug any small passages, rather than a high temperature grease that will remain thick at 400° or more?

[KnightEngines]

I stopped using vasoline for pump gears when I cut open a filter after break in - was 1/2 plugged with vaso, that stuff does not seem to melt/dissolve
The holden V8's I play with a lot have the oil pump bolted to the outside of the block at the front left, the drive shaft cannot be spun over with a drill or whatever so the pump has to prime on it's own pulling oil up from the sump via quite a long pickup tube - STA-lube moly engine assembly lube seems to be the best stuff to make sure that happens.

mag2555 - could be lower combustion temps, oil temps are much the same, maybe a little lower, but most of my E85 engines have grouted blocks, so without an oil cooler on the dyno the oil temp comes up pretty quick.
Would make sense that lower combustion temps are playing a part, not using full load to bed engines, so it takes until tuning pulls under full load & higher combustion temps to get em sealed up.

For bore/ring lube I just use a squirt or 2 of mineral engine oil rubbed around by hand, leave the rings/pistons dry, figure they scrape enough oil off the bores that they don't need more.

[KnightEngines]

do you use it on flat tappet stuff or do you use the moly grease deal?

I use the Torco MPZ cam lube when I can get it (can't at the moment) & the moly paste that comes with the cam otherwise. I always use Crane flat tappet break in lube & plain jane mineral oil. Inner springs out, lash set on the tight side, bed the cam for 20 minutes while bedding the rings, refit inners & run for another 10 to be sure of it, then change oil & add another bottle of Crane lube to be safe.

[mag2555]

I don't use the mineral based type, and I do not use much , as in I do not pack it.

[Schurkey]

i am curious on your thoughts on moly assembly lube mixing with the run in oil and contaminate cylinder walls for ring seal
obviously it depends how much you use
I made a point of using a minimum as required on mains,big ends etc but when i drained the oil after initial start up and cut the filter
the oil tends to be a tinge of black with what looks like graphite spec

The Chevy Power books going back to the 1970s warned about plugged oil filters due to moly-based assembly grease. They claimed the filter could plug in 20 minutes.

I would not use heavy moly-based paste on anything but flat-tappet cam lobes and lifter bottoms. Everything else gets thinner-bodied grease such as Lubriplate 105, Sta-Lube Moly assembly lube, liquid assembly lubes, or even engine oil or ATF depending on application.

On some motors where the pump body is sitting in the oil there's no need to pack the gears, but if I do it's not Moly that's my pick, its disc brake bearing grease!

I wouldn't have tried that. I always heard to use a light-bodied, low-temperature grease like vaseline or Lubriplate 105. When the oil pump can't be primed conventionally, I like the pressurized prelube canister-with-hose-assembly that holds a gallon or so of oil, and is squirted into the oil sending unit port when compressed air is applied to the canister.
http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/High ... -Lube-Tank

Doesn't disc brake bearing grease have clay in it???

Some greases use clay, others use lithium or calcium "soap". (You can guess what happens when you mix "dirt" grease with "soap" grease...)

I am also a firm believer in using only ATF on cylinder walls and rings lands for lube.

I also test hydraulic lifters for their ability to pass oil to the pushrod seat, and their leakdown rate with ATF.

[engineguyBill]

30W engine oil is what I have always used (50+ years) on cylinder walls and piston skirts/ring faces. Moly lube should only be used (sparingly) at high pressure points such as cam lobe/tappet face; pushrod ends; rocker arm tips/valve stem top; etc. Engine assembly lube for the rest of the engine. Vasoline and white lubricant should never be used on internal engine components - in my opinion . . . . . .

[RevTheory]

30W engine oil is what I have always used (50+ years) on cylinder walls and piston skirts/ring faces. Moly lube should only be used (sparingly) at high pressure points such as cam lobe/tappet face; pushrod ends; rocker arm tips/valve stem top; etc. Engine assembly lube for the rest of the engine. Vasoline and white lubricant should never be used on internal engine components - in my opinion . . . . . .

I share your opinion, for whatever that's worth. I do like the thinner cam lube (packet that comes with the cam) in the wrist pins but I could take it or leave it without any fuss.

[Zmechanic]

...but when i drained the oil after initial start up and cut the filter
the oil tends to be a tinge of black with what looks like graphite spec...

Yes, some moly lubes (including ARP ultratorque) get caught in the filter and look like fine metal particles/glitter in the oil!

[Kevin Johnson]

White petrolatum is available in melting points from 36 degrees C to 60 degrees C which could explain varying experiences with it. Get some from your pharmacist or chemist that melts at 36 degrees C (96.8 F).