How much quicker and faster?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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steve316
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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby steve316 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:45 am

IMO your 60 ft. time is good. A wheelie bar like Ken keir made for his son's 70 nova would allow for trans brake launch with out dragging your bumper. I would want to have the engine sorted and base lined on the dyno first. Dime & nickel improvements are hard to find; but hundreds do add up.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby Janow » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:32 am

randy331 wrote:
af2 wrote:
Why are you messin with the engine?


I agree with dynoing the engine even when the car ain't sorted.

If the car varies it's hard to sort the engine. Separate them and validate and tune the engine as it's own entity. Then you have info on optimum stall speed and shift rpm, and an expected ET it should be able to run. Then work on the car to get it to run that et.

408 nova, couple more things,

Make sure you have a tap in the intake for vacuum info. Having that will give you an idea if a bigger carb will help.
950 may be a bit small for your power level. Where I dyno there is usually a few big carbs sittin around we can try. Big Q16 carbs, nice 4825 series Braswells etc.

Also, put a tap to read crank case vacuum. Just dynoed one with the GZ sportsman vacuum pump last week, and it'd pull over 17" on an engine that had no extras to seal it up.
Kinda surprised it'd pull that much on that engine.

And,... bring only 1-2 actual helpers. Ones that can actual do mechanical work. Spectators will just be in the way and distract you while your paying for dyno time.

Stay at it, you can get it in the 5s all motor. ( and I hope I'm not far behind :D )

Randy


Great insights in this post. I had no idea about the Braswells.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby randy331 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:19 pm

408 Nova wrote: Everybody tells me the cam is out of whack.

Current cam @ 100* ICL

IVO----30.5 BTDC
IVC----50.5 ABDC
EVO---60 BBDC
EVC---24 ATDC

New cam @ 105* ICL

IVO---26.5 BTDC
IVC---56.5 ABDC
EVO--62 BBDC
EVC -22 ATDC

Randy

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby wyrmrider » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:50 pm

Let's see how it works out
Intake is retarded compared to old
less overlap
same ex lobe? does not look like enough change to make much difference
what's the seat timing at the valve?
you trying to cut down reversion? or what?

408 Nova
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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby 408 Nova » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:33 am

randy331 wrote:
408 Nova wrote: Everybody tells me the cam is out of whack.

Current cam @ 100* ICL

IVO----30.5 BTDC
IVC----50.5 ABDC
EVO---60 BBDC
EVC---24 ATDC

New cam @ 105* ICL

IVO---26.5 BTDC
IVC---56.5 ABDC
EVO--62 BBDC
EVC -22 ATDC

Randy


Intake valve opens 4 degrees later, and doesn't get as much of a head-start on the piston. According to DV, with my 2.10 valve, 45 degree seats, 1.65 intake rocker, and TK intake lobe, a later opening is what is needed because breathing area or capacity is being presented to the cylinder extremely fast, and backing it off a little will be a positive move for more power, probably in the low and mid range, because of less reversion.

Intake valve closes up 6 degrees later ABDC, which should increase top end power, because of more flow through of the intake charge ABDC

There's not much change in the exhaust, however, the exhaust valve will be opening 2 degrees earlier, and should give a little more top end power, without eating into the power stroke too bad.

Going from 85 to 79 degrees of overlap should do what?

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby 408 Nova » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:53 am

wyrmrider wrote:Let's see how it works out
Intake is retarded compared to old
less overlap
same ex lobe? does not look like enough change to make much difference
what's the seat timing at the valve?
you trying to cut down reversion? or what?


Intake opens at 40.5 degrees BTDC, closes at 70.5 degrees ABDC. Same exhaust lobe. Exhaust opens at 78.5 degrees BBDC, closes at 38.5 degrees ATDC, according to John Wallace's cam calculator. This is at a checking height of .020".

No sir, I don't care about reversion, just power! Just trying to maximize the power output of this thing before moving on to a different motor. The cam may or may not help, but I am damn sure gonna find out.

Just guessing, but i'm looking for 10 hp from the manifold change, 10 hp from the cam change, 10 hp from adding the vacuum pump, and 10 hp from tuning, all at peak, which hopefully will help the average too, to get me in the 5 second zone.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby randy331 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:49 am

408 Nova wrote:Intake valve opens 4 degrees later, and doesn't get as much of a head-start on the piston. According to DV, with my 2.10 valve, 45 degree seats, 1.65 intake rocker, and TK intake lobe, a later opening is what is needed because breathing area or capacity is being presented to the cylinder extremely fast, and backing it off a little will be a positive move for more power, probably in the low and mid range, because of less reversion.

Likely a positive move.

408 Nova wrote:Intake valve closes up 6 degrees later ABDC, which should increase top end power, because of more flow through of the intake charge ABDC

This change is the one I'd bet on making the most difference.

408 Nova wrote:There's not much change in the exhaust, however, the exhaust valve will be opening 2 degrees earlier, and should give a little more top end power, without eating into the power stroke too bad.

2 DEG. earlier EVO probably un detectable by itself. I'd have opened it earlier for your cube/rpm/comp. The earlier EVC likely a good move.

408 Nova wrote:Going from 85 to 79 degrees of overlap should do what?

Personally I think overlap can be a negative as easily as a positive. Too much is as bad or worse than not enough. It should also not be looked at in just deg. Valve size/seats etc are part of true overlap. In your case you still have plenty with new cam.

Couple thoughts, I'd have wanted to try your current cam in different positions and lash settings before deciding on a new cam. However the changes may be hard to see at the track, and testing the current cam on a dyno, then buying second cam and validating the changes would require 2 dyno sessions.

Do you have a way to change cam position easily? Jesel etc ? Cam position has been one thing that has steadily been worth testing on the dyno. Over half of the cams we've moved made more power in a position other than what the cam card says. Sometimes it just rocks the power curve around, that will still show you what position will make the most where you need it. In your case about 5500 rpm and up.

Randy

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby wyrmrider » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:20 am

sorry nova I thought it was randy posting
randy- excellent analysis- as usual
and advice
cheers

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby 408 Nova » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:33 pm

randy331 wrote:
408 Nova wrote:Intake valve opens 4 degrees later, and doesn't get as much of a head-start on the piston. According to DV, with my 2.10 valve, 45 degree seats, 1.65 intake rocker, and TK intake lobe, a later opening is what is needed because breathing area or capacity is being presented to the cylinder extremely fast, and backing it off a little will be a positive move for more power, probably in the low and mid range, because of less reversion.

Likely a positive move.

408 Nova wrote:Intake valve closes up 6 degrees later ABDC, which should increase top end power, because of more flow through of the intake charge ABDC

This change is the one I'd bet on making the most difference.

408 Nova wrote:There's not much change in the exhaust, however, the exhaust valve will be opening 2 degrees earlier, and should give a little more top end power, without eating into the power stroke too bad.

2 DEG. earlier EVO probably un detectable by itself. I'd have opened it earlier for your cube/rpm/comp. The earlier EVC likely a good move.

408 Nova wrote:Going from 85 to 79 degrees of overlap should do what?

Personally I think overlap can be a negative as easily as a positive. Too much is as bad or worse than not enough. It should also not be looked at in just deg. Valve size/seats etc are part of true overlap. In your case you still have plenty with new cam.

Couple thoughts, I'd have wanted to try your current cam in different positions and lash settings before deciding on a new cam. However the changes may be hard to see at the track, and testing the current cam on a dyno, then buying second cam and validating the changes would require 2 dyno sessions.

Do you have a way to change cam position easily? Jesel etc ? Cam position has been one thing that has steadily been worth testing on the dyno. Over half of the cams we've moved made more power in a position other than what the cam card says. Sometimes it just rocks the power curve around, that will still show you what position will make the most where you need it. In your case about 5500 rpm and up.

Randy


No sir, I have a one piece timing cover, and a high quality (supposedly) Jeg's billet 9-keyway timing set that is going in when I swap cams. I would love to have one of those Jesel's though, but I don't want to do that right now. I'm saving a little money for my next project, and one of those Jesel's just might make it on the that motor.

I never have really thought about moving the existing cam around. I think that's a great idea though. Dyno time is expensive as you already know, and more than likely, it's just not going to happen, like you said. My plan, if it survives, however, is to optimize the existing combination on the dyno, swap cams, and then optimize it with the new cam. Doesn't matter if it makes less or more, the intake swap will go on, to see if it helps it, or hurts it. If the new parts don't work out, I can always swap them back out at home.

And again, thank you for the suggestions!

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby randy331 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:24 am

When is the anticipated dyno date?

I'd say there'd be a little power in something bigger than your 950.
I picked up a 1.59 V x 1.79 throttle 4825 series Braswell last time out at the dyno.
My engine would pull more vacuum on a 1050 4500 Holley than it would on that size 4825 Braswell.
Be interesting to see it on your engine on the dyno.


Randy

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby 408 Nova » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:11 am

randy331 wrote:When is the anticipated dyno date?

I'd say there'd be a little power in something bigger than your 950.
I picked up a 1.59 V x 1.79 throttle 4825 series Braswell last time out at the dyno.
My engine would pull more vacuum on a 1050 4500 Holley than it would on that size 4825 Braswell.
Be interesting to see it on your engine on the dyno.


Randy


That's because your 383 is a hoss! My 408 is average at best.

Haven't gotten my intake from Chad Speier yet. I'm in no way complaining; he's in his busy season I'm guessing. But the day I get it, I'm making an appointment with Chris Cobb at Dynotune Engineering in Paris, TN to get my dyno time.

I gonna get myself one of those two piece timing covers, so I don't have to drop the pan to swap cams, and save a little time on the dyno. I have Lunati pop up lifters in it, so I shouldn't have to pull the intake 'til I want to swap the intakes.

I am gonna call Chris Cobb today today to see if he has a Dominator and a 4150-4500 adapter I can try, if we have time. Heck, he might even have a Braswell or two, that would be nice. I'm kinda wishing I had went with a ported 2970 and a Dominator instead of that ported 2892 now. We have an S-10 with a stock 2970 on a 434 that runs really well with it on there.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby GARY C » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:37 am

I may be wrong but I don't think the 2 piece cover will allow a cam change, but will allow you access to move the cam, or at least the one I had was that way and leaked like a mofo.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby 408 Nova » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:06 am

GARY C wrote:I may be wrong but I don't think the 2 piece cover will allow a cam change, but will allow you access to move the cam, or at least the one I had was that way and leaked like a mofo.


Lol. Well heck, that's good to know.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby CGT » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:31 am

GARY C wrote:I may be wrong but I don't think the 2 piece cover will allow a cam change, but will allow you access to move the cam, or at least the one I had was that way and leaked like a mofo.


Correct Mr. C

408 Nova wrote:Lol. Well heck, that's good to know.


I just avoid using rtv anywhere that will cause me hang-ups prior to dynoing. A small drip here or there is no big deal at the pan or cover on the dyno (may cost you some vacuum though) Then just reseal everything correctly after the session. Nothing worse to me than dicking with scraping rtv when in a hurry. That makes dropping the front of the pan to remove the cover less of a pain..

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Postby randy331 » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:03 pm

408 Nova wrote: I was just guessing it might have 580 hp, if I was lucky.


I'd say it's more than that.

In the exact trim mine ran a 6.02 @ 113+ it made 624 HP. 2950 LBs.

As close as our 2 cars run, it'd be interesting to switch engines and see who's car is better, then put them on the same dyno??
Maybe swap cams for a dyno pull or 2??

We may both learn enough to get us both solidly in the 5s. :D

Randy


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