How much quicker and faster?

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Steve.k
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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by Steve.k » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:09 am

I think you would see more gains from 1050 dommi.

408 Nova
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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 408 Nova » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:48 pm

I think you're right. A good ported 2970 and a Dominator I think would be the hot ticket. Too late now though!

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 289nate » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:28 pm

A big advantage of the vacuum pump is the ring package it will allow you to run. Those two things can lead to the big power gains you hear about.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 408 Nova » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:56 pm

289nate wrote:A big advantage of the vacuum pump is the ring package it will allow you to run. Those two things can lead to the big power gains you hear about.
This engine has been built a while now. It has the Hastings standard tension 1/16", 1/16", 3/16" ring package in it. I know they're not optimal for a vacuum pump, and I have no gas ports, but I'm hoping for at least 10-15 hp from the pump alone.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by CGT » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:07 pm

408 Nova wrote:This engine has been built a while now. It has the Hastings standard tension 1/16", 1/16", 3/16" ring package in it. I know they're not optimal for a vacuum pump, and I have no gas ports, but I'm hoping for at least 10-15 hp from the pump alone.
I think 10-15 could be possible even with those rings.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by randy331 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:49 pm

408 Nova wrote: My dyno time should go something like this: existing combo, then swap the cam, then rockers, then swap the intake, then put the belt on the vacuum pump. That's all the dyno time I can afford!
Unless you have been through that before, on the same dyno your headed to, in the same shop, it's unlikely you'll get that all done in one day.
You need a certain amount of test pulls on each change to validate the results. Sometimes 02s change after a change and that will need sorted,..etc.
If the power difference was small you need 2-3 back up pulls to make sure what your seeing.
Cams need tested for best position too or your making a lot of assumptions about the results.

A few thoughts that may help.
Go to the dyno shop and look at it.
Find out if your headers can be used and what it will take for that to happen. (collector diameter to their exit tube size etc)
Find out what size/type of fitting you need to hook up oil pressure, and get it ahead of time and have it installed when you get there.
Find out if a starter is required or not.
Find out if they use a remote water pump, or if you need yours, and if so what connectors are needed to hook it up.
Same with ignition. If they have 6al and you run 7al, mount your set-up on your engine out of the way of changes you plan, and have it with coil all wired up.
Then all you need there is positive power and the kill wire.
Bring it there with plugs your not gonna run in it and switch after headers are on so none get broke. (had that happen then your waiting on the parts store)
See about 02 sensor location and hook up. Like if theirs are in their dyno headers and you want to run them, what will it take?
If i'm planning an intake swap, I trial fit both. see if same thickness gasket works and the new one don't need milling to fit. Then I glue the gasket down to the head good, and use no silicon between intake and gasket, and just silicon on china rails. Then slice the china rail silicon as close to the intake as possible so a very thin layer re seals it. Get a fast dry silicon for this.
If cam swap, I made up a set of hangers I can reach down through pushrod holes and pick lifters up and hang them, so the intake don't have to come off or drain the water,
Balancer puller/installer. Make sure they have one you like and ok with you using it, or bring your own. This goes for all tools.
Take some pics while your there looking incase you think of something else before you go dyno.
Bring a way to down load all your data when your done, so you can put it on your computer and study later.
408 Nova wrote: I'd be really happy with a 25 hp increase, and a solid 5.90 in 2000" air


Wallace shows you need 75 more HP to go from 6.10 to 5.90. I don't see the changes you made doing that.
Likely you had a 5.99 in it before in stellar conditions with more sorting the car.
The dyno session it self is as likely to help you get in the 5s as anything you changed.

That 5.99 has been elusive for me too. :D

Anyway, good luck ! Hope all goes well on dyno day.

Randy

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by bigjoe1 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:12 pm

It is very hard to see much improvement when you run the one eight mile




JOE SHERMAN RACING

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 408 Nova » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:16 pm

randy331 wrote:
408 Nova wrote: My dyno time should go something like this: existing combo, then swap the cam, then rockers, then swap the intake, then put the belt on the vacuum pump. That's all the dyno time I can afford!
Unless you have been through that before, on the same dyno your headed to, in the same shop, it's unlikely you'll get that all done in one day.
You need a certain amount of test pulls on each change to validate the results. Sometimes 02s change after a change and that will need sorted,..etc.
If the power difference was small you need 2-3 back up pulls to make sure what your seeing.
Cams need tested for best position too or your making a lot of assumptions about the results.

A few thoughts that may help.
Go to the dyno shop and look at it.
Find out if your headers can be used and what it will take for that to happen. (collector diameter to their exit tube size etc)
Find out what size/type of fitting you need to hook up oil pressure, and get it ahead of time and have it installed when you get there.
Find out if a starter is required or not.
Find out if they use a remote water pump, or if you need yours, and if so what connectors are needed to hook it up.
Same with ignition. If they have 6al and you run 7al, mount your set-up on your engine out of the way of changes you plan, and have it with coil all wired up.
Then all you need there is positive power and the kill wire.
Bring it there with plugs your not gonna run in it and switch after headers are on so none get broke. (had that happen then your waiting on the parts store)
See about 02 sensor location and hook up. Like if theirs are in their dyno headers and you want to run them, what will it take?
If i'm planning an intake swap, I trial fit both. see if same thickness gasket works and the new one don't need milling to fit. Then I glue the gasket down to the head good, and use no silicon between intake and gasket, and just silicon on china rails. Then slice the china rail silicon as close to the intake as possible so a very thin layer re seals it. Get a fast dry silicon for this.
If cam swap, I made up a set of hangers I can reach down through pushrod holes and pick lifters up and hang them, so the intake don't have to come off or drain the water,
Balancer puller/installer. Make sure they have one you like and ok with you using it, or bring your own. This goes for all tools.
Take some pics while your there looking incase you think of something else before you go dyno.
Bring a way to down load all your data when your done, so you can put it on your computer and study later.
408 Nova wrote: I'd be really happy with a 25 hp increase, and a solid 5.90 in 2000" air


Wallace shows you need 75 more HP to go from 6.10 to 5.90. I don't see the changes you made doing that.
Likely you had a 5.99 in it before in stellar conditions with more sorting the car.
The dyno session it self is as likely to help you get in the 5s as anything you changed.

That 5.99 has been elusive for me too. :D

Anyway, good luck ! Hope all goes well on dyno day.

Randy
Thank you Randy for all the tips. That will definitely help me out. It's gonna be tough to get everything I want to do done, for sure, but we're gonna give it whirl.

Watching your saga with the cosmetically challenged Nova is some of what got me off the couch and chipping away at my ET's. With a tighter converter, an AF ratio monitor, and going from Turbo Blue 110 to VP 113, we went from a 6.298 at 106 mph to a 6.055 at almost 111 mph. The car just would not respond to jetting changes, up or down. I eventually found out it was really rich, at 10:1. I eventually got it to 13.5:1 pretty much across the board with high speed bleed changes and a little jet work, and the oxygenated fuel leaned it out a bunch too. It might need a little bit of enrichment, and we haven't touched the distributor yet, which is locked out at 38 degrees.

There is no way this thing will pick up 75 hp! 25 hp from the changes and some more tuning may let it touch a 5.99 in good air. Lol. It sure is damned expensive to gain a few hundredths! I could put nitrous on this thing for way cheaper, and go a lot faster. But I want to do it all motor.

We're having the same problem you're having, we can't tame the wheelstands. It's coming up almost to the back bumper on the footbrake, and the trans brake is a moonshot. We only tried the transbrake once; we tore the fuel filter off the back of the car, flattened the headers, and tore up the oilpan, with the shocks tightened all the way up.

Anyways, thanks for all the advice again.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by af2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:02 pm

408 Nova wrote:
randy331 wrote:
408 Nova wrote:

We're having the same problem you're having, we can't tame the wheelstands. It's coming up almost to the back bumper on the footbrake, and the trans brake is a moonshot. We only tried the transbrake once; we tore the fuel filter off the back of the car, flattened the headers, and tore up the oilpan, with the shocks tightened all the way up.

Anyways, thanks for all the advice again.
Why are you messin with the engine?
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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by Casper393W » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:31 pm

Time to chain that front end down!

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by af2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:39 pm

Casper393W wrote:Time to chain that front end down!
Seriously the suspension is NOT happy!!
GURU is only a name.
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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by randy331 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:29 pm

af2 wrote:
Why are you messin with the engine?
I agree with dynoing the engine even when the car ain't sorted.

If the car varies it's hard to sort the engine. Separate them and validate and tune the engine as it's own entity. Then you have info on optimum stall speed and shift rpm, and an expected ET it should be able to run. Then work on the car to get it to run that et.

408 nova, couple more things,

Make sure you have a tap in the intake for vacuum info. Having that will give you an idea if a bigger carb will help.
950 may be a bit small for your power level. Where I dyno there is usually a few big carbs sittin around we can try. Big Q16 carbs, nice 4825 series Braswells etc.

Also, put a tap to read crank case vacuum. Just dynoed one with the GZ sportsman vacuum pump last week, and it'd pull over 17" on an engine that had no extras to seal it up.
Kinda surprised it'd pull that much on that engine.

And,... bring only 1-2 actual helpers. Ones that can actual do mechanical work. Spectators will just be in the way and distract you while your paying for dyno time.

Stay at it, you can get it in the 5s all motor. ( and I hope I'm not far behind :D )

Randy

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 408 Nova » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:51 pm

Why are you messin with the engine?[/quote]

I see we where you're coming from. But everybody is all ways looking for more, aren't they? Everybody tells me the cam is out of whack, so I'm gonna try a cam swap just to see. The other two changes are just monkey see, monkey do.

Travel limiters are going on, and if that doesn't help, a Calvert wheelie bar is going on.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 408 Nova » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:56 pm

randy331 wrote:
af2 wrote:
Why are you messin with the engine?
I agree with dynoing the engine even when the car ain't sorted.

If the car varies it's hard to sort the engine. Separate them and validate and tune the engine as it's own entity. Then you have info on optimum stall speed and shift rpm, and an expected ET it should be able to run. Then work on the car to get it to run that et.

408 nova, couple more things,

Make sure you have a tap in the intake for vacuum info. Having that will give you an idea if a bigger carb will help.
950 may be a bit small for your power level. Where I dyno there is usually a few big carbs sittin around we can try. Big Q16 carbs, nice 4825 series Braswells etc.

Also, put a tap to read crank case vacuum. Just dynoed one with the GZ sportsman vacuum pump last week, and it'd pull over 17" on an engine that had no extras to seal it up.
Kinda surprised it'd pull that much on that engine.

And,... bring only 1-2 actual helpers. Ones that can actual do mechanical work. Spectators will just be in the way and distract you while your paying for dyno time.

Stay at it, you can get it in the 5s all motor. ( and I hope I'm not far behind :D )

Randy
Thanks again. I really did not have a clue about all this.

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Re: How much quicker and faster?

Post by 408 Nova » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:46 pm

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