Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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createaaron
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by createaaron »

Thanks for the replys fellas. I hope this thread expands. I know ill be back with more questions and hopefully some answers. At this point, im using what the school has available to us. Which isnt much considering theyre laying off the instructor and possibly closing the program so the budget is none. Speaking with a fellow at BRM (brush research manufacturing) at PRI talking about the ball hone they say that its some of the best on the market to finish a cylinder with. Anybody have experience with this manufacturer? What machines are you machinists using out there in the field?
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by wyrmrider »

BRI is not to far from Me= used them for years
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modok
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by modok »

I personally don't use any "dinglberry" hones, but that does not mean they don't work, it just means the several several instances that I saw poor results "something" wasn't right and I never took the time to figure out what that "something" was.

The brush research company 10-20 years ago made it sound like it's a "one size fits all foolproof tool that always makes a better job", and all I can tell you is THAT'S certainly not true.

You can do the same "kind of thing" with scotchbrite, abrasive impregnated plastic brushes, or a very SOFT vitrified abrasive stone, and there isn't clear winner.

I can say that immediately after honing a cylinder to size, that cylinder is perfectly true "as far as the hone is concerned", for the stones and pressure and temperature it is at in this moment that you just honed it, thus you can switch to a fine and soft stone and sweep through the cylinders with slightly lighter pressure than before and it will able to cut the surface evenly, but the next day or the next hour even, the cylinder will distort just a little bit and then there will be high spots and low spots, and if you tried to do that now it would take too much off the high spots and not enough on the low spots and also wear the extra soft stones rapidly, and just generally work terrible.
So in some cases you can plateau a cylinder with a rigid hone, when the conditions are right, but others you can't, and then a flexible hone of some form would have to be used, and if I ever end up there, I'd have to figure THAT out.
createaaron
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by createaaron »

I will always hone to my spec or a few .0001 out. Leave it for an hour, come back and finish up. Leave it for another 20 and then finally do the plateau hone. I agree that the ball hone is size specific as well and brushes. It is important that the outside of the ball/brush is making contact not the sides as stated earlier. Id like to hear some guys chime in with Rk,Rvk,Rpk values, and there finishing procedures and how the bore look after so many passes or so many miles etc.. If they would like to disclose such info that is... How do you all feel about oil additives to help cylinder wear?
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by racear2865 »

you cant make people believe that cast iron is a living thang. I was in a shop early this week to work on a balancer and he had 21 CNC machines milling cast iron drums. Right off the machine, every item was in spec. Let them set a week and aint so. Customer was giving him fits. I told him to bring customer in and show him. He did so, and they started measureably dimesion changing in as little as 2 hrs. If customer wanted perfect sizing I showed them how too stress relief before machining and it helped better than 50% but did not totally cure as the machining put stress back in them. Custoer decided he didnt want to pay for additinal work. I suspect he will go out for another quote and try to get that included in quote with pricing increase. American way I suppose
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by stvermeer »

After honing to .0005 from finish size, I let the block sit usually overnight and finish the next morning. Things move around a lot.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by statsystems »

stvermeer wrote:After honing to .0005 from finish size, I let the block sit usually overnight and finish the next morning. Things move around a lot.

I did the same thing.

I even untorqued the torque plate while it sat over night. Even untorquing the torque plate for an hour made a difference in the shape of the bore.

It's the same with the main line.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by David Redszus »

The first step is to bore the cylinder to a desired oversize.
Then, use a rigid stone hone to obtain the proper cylinder geometry: ovality & taper.
Next, use a ball hone to cleanly cut the tops off the peaks produced by honing.
Last, scrub the bore with soap and water, finish with a rust & oxidation oil
coating awaiting final assembly.

Note that for a given abrasive grit number, the finish that will be produced
will depend on the material being honed.

A surface profilometer is a very useful tool as are scrap blocks for practice.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by Diodedog »

I went to an old friend's shop last December and had a discussion on honing. I wanted to pick his brain a bit on stone's verses block hardness, bore measurements after cooling, next day, etc. He has a 616 and I'll be setting up my CK10 in a few months, he builds some high dollar, high end NHRA class drag engines and has a very respected reputation. We're both in our 60s and have been doing this since the seventies but neither of us have anything but a guess as to what shape the cylinder actually takes under running conditions. Common thinking would be that a block honed and measured hot, let's say 160 degrees would be closest to an actual running engine but we prefer to use the cold measurement after a day or so after cooling. A block that has been filled adds another curve to the whole situation. Do any of you have any deep thoughts or actual info on the difference between a block heated from honing versus a block heated from running.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by machinedave »

Diodedog wrote:Do any of you have any deep thoughts or actual info on the difference between a block heated from honing versus a block heated from running.
I have thought that a block heated from running versus hot honing would have additional distortions from the cylinder pressures.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by user-612937456 »

David Redszus wrote:The first step is to bore the cylinder to a desired oversize.
Then, use a rigid stone hone to obtain the proper cylinder geometry: ovality & taper.
Next, use a ball hone to cleanly cut the tops off the peaks produced by honing.
Last, scrub the bore with soap and water, finish with a rust & oxidation oil
coating awaiting final assembly.

Note that for a given abrasive grit number, the finish that will be produced
will depend on the material being honed.

A surface profilometer is a very useful tool as are scrap blocks for practice.
The best answer so far. Although I prefer to cut the peaks off by hand in an up and down motion, the same motion the rings travel in. It removes the peak edges and prevents them from folding into the valleys, reducing the oil trapped in the valley groves purposed for lubricate the rings.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by createaaron »

[quote="Diodedog" A block that has been filled adds another curve to the whole situation. Do any of you have any deep thoughts or actual info on the difference between a block heated from honing versus a block heated from running.[/quote]

Interesting discussion. Lots of hit or miss on the subject of hot honing.. most say it doesnt change the bore enough to be an issue. May be an issue for a NHRA pro stock/pro mod engine? But how many of those engines even run water...
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createaaron
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by createaaron »

racear2865 wrote:you cant make people believe that cast iron is a living thang.
reed
No joke.. people would be surprised! Reed... are you Reed Grant out of tennessee? I recognize your name from Ron's group on facebook
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by Diodedog »

createaaron wrote:[quote="Diodedog" A block that has been filled adds another curve to the whole situation. Do any of you have any deep thoughts or actual info on the difference between a block heated from honing versus a block heated from running.
Interesting discussion. Lots of hit or miss on the subject of hot honing.. most say it doesnt change the bore enough to be an issue. May be an issue for a NHRA pro stock/pro mod engine? But how many of those engines even run water...[/quote]
Pro Mod uses power adders, these engines just have to stay alive. Many Stock and Superstock guys will gladly pay 10G for 5 hundredths of a second. When I get my dyno set up hopefully later this year I'll be able to test a lot of different combo's.
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Re: Cylinder crosshatch general purpose vs. race

Post by Sparksalot »

I admire the dedication of those producing round, straight bores with the correct cylinder surface finish for their purpose. As machinists that's a challenge we can quantify and determine success by accurate measurements.

However, doing it on a cored cast iron production block and understanding what happens when that relatively thin cast iron cylinder sees operating loads from pressure and piston loads are not at all intuitive. Cast iron has a relatively low Young's modulus, it's not particularly resistant to deformation from applied loads. That cylinder becomes a flexy flyer during high BMEP operational loads, it might be round and straight when you measured it but it is far from it during operation. One of the great things about cast iron most people don't know is that it is not susceptible to fatigue. It's immensely flawed at birth, that saves it from fatigue death.

Rings work in those heavily distorted bores if they can bend enough under pressure loads to conform to the distorted cylinder. Race on guys!
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