460 Ford build

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prairiehotrodder
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by prairiehotrodder » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:05 pm

Here 's a picture showing where the AFR head intake valve goes as compared to the factory style valve relief. With the cam positioned where the cam card called for, a head gasket installed, and the head just snugged down lightly (not torqued) I had basically zero PTV clearance. Now i have tons. I still will polish up these notches for a smoother finish. Set my depth at 3/16
Brian

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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by RevTheory » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Wow! Well, at least they were close, lol

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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Lem Evans » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:22 pm

Like Kaase did with the SCJ & P51 head....the AFR guys did a good job of getting the intake valve off the cylinder wall.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by MadBill » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:25 pm

Probably not an issue Prairie, but did you number those pistons yourself? If they were labelled by someone using Ford cylinder conventional, it should have #s 5, 6, 7 & 8 in the left bank..
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by prairiehotrodder » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:06 pm

i built it like a chevy. Maybe it will go faster! I know what you mean about the firing order.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Walter R. Malik » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:11 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:Sorry for all this posting. Hopefully it can help someone besides me. I was right the first time i posted the IVO and IVC. Advancing the cam 4* to the +4 position on the timing chain took me to the exact specs on the cam card. I'm gonna run it at the 0 position which should make the cam 2 degrees advanced instead of 6 on the card. That should give me more top end, more PTV clearance (maybe) and a little less dynamic compression as was mentioned a couple posts back. The car is a 87 mustang with a small drag radial so a little more top end and a little less bottom end should be a good trade off.
This all depends upon which timing set you have on the engine to do these measurements.
There are "straight-up" timing sets and "Retarded" timing sets with the ZERO "keyway" has been moved about 8 crankshaft degrees retarded. Both were used in different years with the O.E.M. 460 engines.
With these sets the, +4 degree mark is CAMSHAFT degrees which would be 8 CRANKSHAFT degrees.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by prairiehotrodder » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:15 pm

I had to put it at the +4 mark to get it where the cam card wanted it.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Walter R. Malik » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 pm

Old School wrote:If you use the +4 it will advance the cam 8 degrees as you found out. I think the cam may be retarded as the 111.5 intake centerline shows 1.5 retarted. The best way to fine tune the advance/retard is with bushings in the cam gear. Its not hard to do, a 2/3 degree bushing will put you on 109/110. The thin side of the bushing goes at 6 o'clock. I would rather have the intake center line on 108/9 than 111.5.

You will have to drill the cam gear to 13/32 for the bushings. The instructions will also tell you to drill the 3 bolt holes. I would not drill the bolt holes with the 13/32 but only drill them enough for the gear to center and the bolts go in freely. If you drill the holes too big the dowel will take the most of the stress instead of the bolts.

All this is moot if you do not want to use a bushing. The 9 way timing sets will provide 2 degree increments for advance/retard.
THIS is a FORD engine ... NOT a Chevrolet so, getting bushings is out of the question. IF more precise cam timing is required then get a belt drive or a timing set with 9 keyways in the crank gear.

OR, a fully EXTERNAL adjustable timing gear & chain set from Cam Research .
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Walter R. Malik » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:24 pm

Old School wrote:
You are correct. It's easy to tell a Chevy mechanic.
YES ... most are insistent about installing one head gasket on the engine backwards, too.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Old School » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:44 pm

[quote="Walter R. Malik"]

THIS is a FORD engine ... NOT a Chevrolet so, getting bushings is out of the question. IF more precise cam timing is required then get a belt drive or a timing set with 9 keyways in the crank gear.

OR, a fully EXTERNAL adjustable timing gear & chain set from Cam Research .[/quote

Walter, was that really necessary after I had already basically apologized for my ignorance several days ago? Billy Robinson

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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by MadBill » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:01 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:...OR, a fully EXTERNAL adjustable timing gear & chain set from Cam Research .
Or, for way less money but more work to index*, a Cloyes Quick Adjust set: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /make/ford

(*Don't know about the 460, but you can cut a window in the timing cover behind the water pump of an SBF to access the bolts without pulling the damper and cover. Pic on request, if I can find it..)
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Walter R. Malik » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:56 pm

MadBill wrote:
Walter R. Malik wrote:...OR, a fully EXTERNAL adjustable timing gear & chain set from Cam Research .
Or, for way less money but more work to index*, a Cloyes Quick Adjust set: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /make/ford

(*Don't know about the 460, but you can cut a window in the timing cover behind the water pump of an SBF to access the bolts without pulling the damper and cover. Pic on request, if I can find it..)
That would be a great alternative, too.
Be sure to use a bronze camshaft thrust plate or have a roller bearing or bronze washer behind that STEEL upper gear.
Even case hardening a standard O.E.M. plate works most of the time.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:04 am

Old School wrote:
Walter R. Malik wrote:
THIS is a FORD engine ... NOT a Chevrolet so, getting bushings is out of the question. IF more precise cam timing is required then get a belt drive or a timing set with 9 keyways in the crank gear.

OR, a fully EXTERNAL adjustable timing gear & chain set from Cam Research .[/quote

Walter, was that really necessary after I had already basically apologized for my ignorance several days ago? Billy Robinson
OH ... did you get hurt feelings here ...? :-({|=

That was for the rest of those people who could be reading through this thread who might not have not been aware of exactly what you were mistakenly posting was pertaining to a Chevrolet engine, not a Ford 385 series engine.
Last edited by Walter R. Malik on Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by DanE2 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:08 am

In the 60's and 70's, before we Ford guys had a lot of aftermarket parts available to us, I would degree my cams as follows.

I would take the Woodruff key out of the crankshaft snout and install the cam, camshaft gear, timing chain and crank gear. ( the crank gear would be installed 180 degrees from the position as to how it would normally set in the timing chain) I would then put the #1 piston at TDC and the camshaft where I wanted it. Onto the crank gear, I would mark both sides of the slot where the Woodruff key would go and take the crank gear to a machine shop and ask them to put a slot for the Woodruff key between my marks.

I would then remove the cam gear and the timing chain, install the Woodruff key back into its slot in the crank snout and install the cam gear, timing chain and crank gear so the Woodruff key was in the new crank gear slot and the cam was now where it should be.

More than one way to get the job done. 8)

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Re: 460 Ford build

Post by prairiehotrodder » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:55 pm

Big update on this build. Finally got it running today. Its been a long time coming. The customer decided he wanted me to put the motor in the car. I had planned on running the engine on a stand but that's a bit of a pain with a BBF because the starter bolts to the transmission. Also I didn't have an MSD box to run the MSD distributor. Anyways got it running today with the inner valve springs removed. Ran it for half an hour and it sounds real good. I doubt there will ever be any way to post any type of results for this engine. It's not going on a dyno and the car will never hook at the track. If he does hook he will break parts and/or rules. The car is a 87 mustang with no roll bar, 3.27 gears and a mild 2500 stall in a C6. Here is a quick run down of the parts:

Scat 502 CID rotating kit with mahle flat tops.
AFR 280 cc bullet heads
matching AFR 4150 intake
holley 950 HP carb
Lunati solid flat tappet 243 / 251 @ .050 .608 / .611 lift 110 LSA cam
can't remember the exact CR but its around 11.2
Brian
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