Gapless Top ring users

[zums]

i use a j-tech plumbed right into the front seat while going thru the gears, but its digital, i have to convert it to .5volt signal and send it thru a data logger in the future cause looking at that while shifting at 8000 on the street aint to easy

[BradH]

Stat. Have you had good luck with them?

Yes.

If I'm not using gas ports I run gapless tops. Spent an assload of money testing them. Never had a set not work.

Can you describe and/or categorize the improvements you found during your tests? And was there a particular type of application (e.g. circle track on methanol) for which you did your tests?

I used TS gapless tops in the previous rebuild of my street/strip big block, but made other changes that mask any ability to quantify any improvements due specifically to the different ring pack. When I tore it down the last time, I found about half the top rings & spacers had rotated to where their respective gaps had aligned. I reassembled the short block with conventional top rings, although I switched to Napier 2nds and a slightly lower tension oil ring set, so I still won't be able to tell what difference the top ring configuration makes.

Thanks - Brad

[David Vizard]

Stat. Have you had good luck with them?

Yes.

If I'm not using gas ports I run gapless tops. Spent an assload of money testing them. Never had a set not work.

My bill for testing these rings is over $60,000 -it's a good job the work or I would be making a really BIG story on this.
DV

[Dan Timberlake]

...............
After bugging them repeatedly about a gapless top ring design, I was told by TS several times over that they could grind a top ring just the same as a 2nd but they would not hold up in the top position because of the added heat. ................

===============

For a couple of years In the late 70s or maybe early 80s ( ?) we balanced a fair bunch of engines for a pretty successful local Harley engine builder who really liked Gapless' 2nd rings.
As I recall he had been told very something similar about the top ring situation by TS.

Some of the basic science behind ring sealing is pretty well known, and risking the pressure differential across the super star top ring seems like a big mistake, even on low rpm (modest ring acceleration) applications.

But as always, what works , works.

[digger]

Stat. Have you had good luck with them?

Yes.

If I'm not using gas ports I run gapless tops. Spent an assload of money testing them. Never had a set not work.

My bill for testing these rings is over $60,000 -it's a good job the work or I would be making a really BIG story on this.
DV

david for a hot street motor (true street motor, many cold starts that gets driven to shops) long stroke pump fuel would you always run gapless tops over conventional?

[David Vizard]

David, for a hot street motor (true street motor, many cold starts that gets driven to shops) long stroke pump fuel would you always run gapless tops over conventional?

Digger,
Yes - I have had zero problems with any TS gapless top ring and I have used them from true street motors to turbo motors making ovewr 10.5 HP per cube. I advise all my students beginners or pro's to use them. Sure they are more money but you only get what you pay for. If the budget is there then there is no other choice.
DV

[The Dark Side of Will]

Stat. Have you had good luck with them?

Yes.

If I'm not using gas ports I run gapless tops. Spent an assload of money testing them. Never had a set not work.

Not with gas ports though? I discussed this with Keith Jones at TS a couple of years back and he said ports were good with Gapless tops.

Not with gas ports though? I discussed this with Keith Jones at TS a couple of years back and he said ports were good with Gapless tops.

I have never tried it so I don't want to run my mouth. I've used gas ports with 1/16 rings and didn't care for it so only .043 or thinner rings get gas ports.

I guess you could gas port an .043 gapless top ring. I just never had any success gas porting thick rings.

I have never tried it so I don't want to run my mouth. I've used gas ports with 1/16 rings and didn't care for it so only .043 or thinner rings get gas ports.

I guess you could gas port an .043 gapless top ring. I just never had any success gas porting thick rings.

Could you give an estimate of the power difference between the 1/16 without gas ports and the .043 with gas ports. I'm putting together an engine as a test mule for my 383 Challenger Super Stocker which will use a legal spec Diamond flat top with the 1/16 rings. It will help me get the (new to me) car out sooner to work out the bugs and can make many pulls at a later date on the dyno without going away as quick as an .043 GP. and will also be a good mule for testing Stocker combos on the dyno.

This is an interesting discussion. I'm considering lateral gas ports for my Northstar the next time I tear it down.

From this thread it sounds like it's not a big deal regarding bore wear, especially in an engine with really hard bore liners: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=45323

I have a Caddy Northstar that I built with Total Seals' "diamond finish" gapless top rings and Napier 2nds in the stock thicknesses of 1.5mm for both. I would gladly have stopped at "gold finish" for the price, but they didn't have it in my bore size when I bought the rings. In some bore sizes, TS apparently buys someone else's rings and "converts" them to gapless. The base ring they use had somewhat poor QC on the thickness, with thickness varying by over 0.0015" across a given ring. This makes 0.001" side clearance impossible to achieve. Since I threw down for the diamond finish process, I was able to order CP pistons with match cut ring grooves and 0.001" side clearance.

Would *lateral* gas ports give me a few more ponies with rings that thick? As it's a street engine and I've heard vertical gas ports can get plugged with soot over time, I'll stick with lateral ports. If so, does anyone have any recommendations for shops to cut the ports without screwing anything up?

<Tangent>
My intent is to make it a trackable street engine and keep the car daily driveable (and a lot of fun!).
Being at the time a novice engine builder I asked for low tension oil rings. At the time I thought I would be dry-sumping the engine and could live with a "little" oil consumption until then. However, it's way more than a little oil consumption. It's pretty bad on dino oil and outright drinks Mobil 1, to the tune of more than a quart per 100 miles. I'm running 15W50. It's especially bad when I have to sit in traffic and the engine heat soaks. It's transversely mounted and the front bank exhaust pipe goes under the oil pan. I have an oil/water heat exchanger, but have not installed it yet. That may *help* but it won't *fix* the problem.

My intent is to tear it back down and put stock oil rings in it. I'm tired of dealing with the oil issue and want to move on to the intake, heads and cams. I'll be in Afghanistan until September, though. Plenty of time to learn things.
</Tangent>

David, for a hot street motor (true street motor, many cold starts that gets driven to shops) long stroke pump fuel would you always run gapless tops over conventional?

Digger,
Yes - I have had zero problems with any TS gapless top ring and I have used them from true street motors to turbo motors making ovewr 10.5 HP per cube. I advise all my students beginners or pro's to use them. Sure they are more money but you only get what you pay for. If the budget is there then there is no other choice.
DV

A ringing endorsement for DV is certainly good news.

[CharlieB53]

One thing no one has mentioned ring pack height relative to piston top. Is this a consideration in determining ring type between TS and a conventional gapped rings? Need this be considered before ordering pistons?

Long ago TS recommended a 2nd TS ring pack for my Harley. I didn't go with it. It just didn't make enough sense not to use a TS on top instead. Next set of pistons I may finally got with TS on Top.

[RevTheory]

I drank the kool-aid back in '03 and used a gapless second ring pack. After a good break in on the dyno and 5 or 6 pulls sneaking up towards maybe 3/4 load, it showed ~.5% leakdown but it would mist the valve covers on a full pull. It never cleared up, either. No mas!

[wyrmrider]

Dark side
solve the oil leak habits?
where appropriate viton 0 rings and hylomar are your friends

[BradH]

One thing no one has mentioned ring pack height relative to piston top. Is this a consideration in determining ring type between TS and a conventional gapped rings? Need this be considered before ordering pistons?.

I have a different twist on this question: What factors would help determine when a higher grade material than the standard ductile iron gapless top ring that T.S. offers should be used?

I've been using flat-top pistols with intake valve reliefs that go almost right to the edge of the piston, and the 1/16" top rings are down .175" from the deck. Given the wide range of operating temperatures a street/strip engine experiences, it made me wonder if the standard top ring material might not be stout enough when used in the thinner size along with the "gapless" spacer.

If I were to try the gapless top ring again with the same piston configuration, would it make sense to look for a "better" top ring material for the application?

[groberts101]

One thing no one has mentioned ring pack height relative to piston top. Is this a consideration in determining ring type between TS and a conventional gapped rings? Need this be considered before ordering pistons?.

I have a different twist on this question: What factors would help determine when a higher grade material than the standard ductile iron gapless top ring that T.S. offers should be used?

I've been using flat-top pistols with intake valve reliefs that go almost right to the edge of the piston, and the 1/16" top rings are down .175" from the deck. Given the wide range of operating temperatures a street/strip engine experiences, it made me wonder if the standard top ring material might not be stout enough when used in the thinner size along with the "gapless" spacer.

If I were to try the gapless top ring again with the same piston configuration, would it make sense to look for a "better" top ring material for the application?

I will say this to help sum it up a bit quicker. Look through their catalog.. TS doesn't even offer really thin gapless top rings in cast form. Tiny cross sections require steel only.

I personally would base my choice of cast or steel replacement on the condition of the set that was removed. Be sure to check for ring land wear, cupping, and twisted/non-parallel ends. If aok and power will be at comparable levels then the next set should hold up just the same? Or factor in some added longevity concerns and base it off that.

OTOH, higher/thinner top rings probably can't have too much margin if the tune ever suddenly went away and steel may add some piece of mind. Plus, it's only money and you can still go get more, right?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Dark side
solve the oil leak habits?
where appropriate viton 0 rings and hylomar are your friends

No leaks. All burning.