Beehives Lost Pressure

[HDBD]

I work on Harley heads and have had some come back for freshening up. I use a lot of Goodson / AV&V springs and I don't want to indicate there is a chronic problem but I have been seeing a drop in pressure seat 1.880 and open @ 1.230, the cam gross lift at the valve is .650, on some with less than 10K miles of street use. Part number is HVS-6500S. I am now looking for a spring that will take the place of these and last. What may be the cause? Thoughts?

[Newold1]

Is this appearing on both intake and exhaust valve springs?

What kind of spring pressure change from new to problem?

What are the weight of the valves?

Any issues with excessive oil temperatures?

[HDBD]

One I have here now lost ~30# across the board on all springs

[statsystems]

I'm in the minority here.

Virtually every time I used a beehive spring I got burned. I just quit using them. I'm sure they have a place. Just no place with me. Maybe if I had access to a spintron I may think differently. I doubt it.

[pamotorman]

does the engine have a rev limiter to prevent over revving and floating the valves which will beat the valve springs to death

[PackardV8]

I'm in the minority here. Virtually every time I used a beehive spring I got burned. I just quit using them. I'm sure they have a place. Just no place with me. Maybe if I had access to a spintron I may think differently. I doubt it.

Does anyone not remember the bad old days when cylindrical valve springs of round wire broke every time there was an increase in valve size/weight and cam lobe profile intensity? The introduction of the ubiquitous big block Chevy began with the 1965 396" 425 horsepower, a debacle of valve spring inadequacy. Most every one of those sold was back in for an engine replacement with in the first few months. So we didn't get today's good stuff for the first hundred years of poppet valve use; it was a constant evolution.

Since OEMs use beehive valve springs on performance engines and warranty them, maybe it's not an inherent problem with the design. Does anyone think the aftermarket beehive springs available at present are somehow inherently flawed?

A random thought comes to mind; as beehives became available, designers used the technology to shorten the installed height to where there is little room left for aftermarket higher lift cam designs. Since the beehive is designed to stack the bottom coils, which are more cylindrical, could the problems be the result of increased cam lift stacking or increasing the flexing of the higher up coils, which are smaller diameter?

[DaveMcLain]

My Harley experience is pretty limited but I have seen them with the springs really dead before. I always thought that was from getting too hot and not the fault of the spring directly. I've personally had very good results from the beehive springs from PAC. I've used their X ones with the polished surfaces.

[MadBill]

OP, if you do enough volume to get meaningful feed back, you could start doing rebuilds with suitable spec springs from two well-reputed sources in each engine and then down the road see if one has held its # better.

[HDBD]

The bike these heads came off of was redlined at 6200 and being a big high compression motor I am sure ran much warmer than a NA water cooled motor. I think I will use conicals next. Comp 7256. I need an installed height of 1.9. My fear with these is they are very stout and will sit at 160# seat and 475# open at .650. This is a hydraulic roller motor. Valves are heavy, 2.13 x 1.65 5/16 stems. The lifters are very similar to GM Chevy .842.

[MadBill]

Can you use a greater installed height (e.g. + 0.050" keepers) to ease the squeeze?

[Newold1]

Take a look at these beehive springs down from the top as though you are looking straight down at the valve tip center opening (uninstalled). If you notice that as the valve spring would be compressing as it would be in the engine if that compression of the spring does not keep the center of the spring diameter right in the center as it collapses, the wire of the spring itself will work sort of like bending a paper clip or wire back and forth. This bending (working of the wire) at the high rpms of an engine can actually heat and fatigue the wire in improperly designed or wound beehive springs, the heat causing the spring pressures to fall off fairly quickly and sometimes result in spring failure. This was a known problem (in the beehive spring manufacturing sector) (not publicly admitted) early on at Comp and Peterson and in some cases earned the beehive some bad reputation. The beehive configuration in itself tends to sometimes create extra heat as the wire compresses in its circular motion. This may be why the single conical spring is starting to gain favor.

Don't know who or where Goodson got those springs but I suspect they are not in the valve spring manufacturing business and might have been sold a large batch of the springs that some other manufacturers discounted and dumped when they discovered their spring might be a problem. this is strictly a conjecture as it might not be the case here at all.

I like many others still prefer the good old dual spring, has it's own set of issues sometimes, but it will when it fails tend to result in bent valves versus dropped valves and that catastrophic result.

[Kevin Johnson]

Take a look at these beehive springs down from the top as though you are looking straight down at the valve tip center opening (uninstalled). If you notice that as the valve spring would be compressing as it would be in the engine if that compression of the spring does not keep the center of the spring diameter right in the center as it collapses, the wire of the spring itself will work sort of like bending a paper clip or wire back and forth. This bending (working of the wire) at the high rpms of an engine can actually heat and fatigue the wire in improperly designed or wound beehive springs, the heat causing the spring pressures to fall off fairly quickly and sometimes result in spring failure. This was a known problem (in the beehive spring manufacturing sector) (not publicly admitted) early on at Comp and Peterson and in some cases earned the beehive some bad reputation. The beehive configuration in itself tends to sometimes create extra heat as the wire compresses in its circular motion. This may be why the single conical spring is starting to gain favor.

Don't know who or where Goodson got those springs but I suspect they are not in the valve spring manufacturing business and might have been sold a large batch of the springs that some other manufacturers discounted and dumped when they discovered their spring might be a problem. this is strictly a conjecture as it might not be the case here at all.

I like many others still prefer the good old dual spring, has it's own set of issues sometimes, but it will when it fails tend to result in bent valves versus dropped valves and that catastrophic result.

This came up in the LS7 discussion. If you look at the pic below you can see the distortion.

_7_top_ls7_heads_hrdp_1203_015.jpg

[Keith Morganstein]

I work on Harley heads and have had some come back for freshening up. I use a lot of Goodson / AV&V springs and I don't want to indicate there is a chronic problem but I have been seeing a drop in pressure seat 1.880 and open @ 1.230, the cam gross lift at the valve is .650, on some with less than 10K miles of street use. Part number is HVS-6500S. I am now looking for a spring that will take the place of these and last. What may be the cause? Thoughts?

The PAC 1220X is working for me in evo heads.
http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive-Si ... X/Item/785

The riders who like the big burnouts can really beat up the valve train

[Newold1]

I just looked at the pic on Goodson"s website for that 6500 series spring. You can see right from the picture that the opening in the top of the spring is off center very obviously and when this spring is compressed the spring wire will tend to wind up and bend as it is compressed as the the valve tip and retainer keep themselves somewhat in the center. BAD MOJO!

This is another reason maybe Comp has come along with the conical spring in their offerings, maybe? There are good beehive springs in the marketplace that don't exhibit this problem and seem to be working well for many-as long as they don't break !

[David Vizard]

My Harley experience is pretty limited but I have seen them with the springs really dead before. I always thought that was from getting too hot and not the fault of the spring directly. I've personally had very good results from the beehive springs from PAC. I've used their X ones with the polished surfaces.

Although never on Harleys I have had outstanding results from Pac's beehive springs on the dyno, the track and the spintron.
DV