2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

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David Vizard
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by David Vizard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:11 pm

jcisworthy wrote:
David Vizard wrote:
jcisworthy wrote:So these heads are going to be dyno tested against stock heads? What about ported heads from someone else?
Question- is the dyno testing of these ported heads by some one else going to be paid for by that someone else or should it be as a charity deal by me?

Just asking so I know where I stand here.

DV
If someone offered a professionally ported loaner set of E7TE heads, that represents a substantial charity for this test.

I know time is money.

I was just wondering the test was going to include a set of E7TE heads done according to your port energy techniques and a set done by someone else who does not use it for comparison purposes.
JC,
The situation that exists here is that nothing actually costs 'nothing'.
For over 20 years I had my own dyno. When I moved to Charlotte my good friend Don Losito gave my workshop space in his facility and along with that use of the equipment. This included three flow benches, a 2000 hp dyno, a spintron and machinery such as mills, lathes, even a jig borer. But when dyno and spintron rental dropped those machines were the first to go. But my good friend Terry Walters stepped in and offered help towards producing my books and articles on a 'lets trade' basis. The end result is that Terry and I work out the cost of dyno testing on the basis that if it is needed solely by me for say the final test of a build that will be sold right after the dyno testing.Under such circumstances the dyno testing costs me is $500 a day. This also goes with a post dyno test tear-down inspection to establish all is well. The engine is then reassembled in Terry's shop and carries a warranty. That costs me a further $1500. So, at the very least a days dyno testing for my stuff results in $500 out of my pocket.

If it is a joint research deal Terry picks up all the cost. If it is a case of book/article parts testing on one of Terry's motors then the cost to me is $400 a day which I then work off in trade specing out engine builds, porting or making up simple special tooling etc.

The bottom line here is that testing a set of heads for another head porter would be the same as my walking into some engine shop and asking for a free dyno session on one of their engines just because I have a set of heads I think would be worth testing. What would the likely response be? Probably something along the lines of 'Yes we can do that. Dyno rental is $650 a day and the rental on the test engine is $150 a day'

So similarly the tests of this porters heads would be a minimum of $400 out of my pocket and I might also point out that the FREE info I give out on this forum costs me money to give you guys. I have to draw the line somewhere.

But if I take on the testing of this guys heads there is more to it than just a dyno test. Remember these E7TE heads were done with a mind to not break into water. Charlie could have got more airflow but only at the expense of a possible break through. This means the the first move would be to send the heads to Charlie for him to sonic test for wall thickness to establish we are not about to dyno test a set of 'flyers'. Next they would need to be shipped to me for comprehensive (about 4 hours) flow bench analysis. From here on up to Terry's shop for the best part of a days dyno testing.

Why a day just to check some heads? Well the fact is in such a case the only fair test would be the optimize mixture and ignition timing as well as cam timing. Also the flow bench tests might very well show the cam that works best with a Carnut1/DV head may be well off the mark for our head porters heads. Would the results be valid if the tests were not with the optimum cam in each case - I think not.

So here we can add a cam change to the equation and the cost of a cam. See how it is mounting up. Now if your head porter is willing to support the costs that I normally have to support to get my results I will be ready to go in a few weeks. If not this goes nowhere.

Another scenario here. It might be a long shot but what if the cylinder heads fail drastically. I am sure your head porter won't want the results put out to the public. If I am covering costs they are my results not his so I can make them as public as I want. If he is paying for the tests then they are his results not mine so he retains total control of who should or should not see them.

So now you have a more full picture of the ituation I welcome your comments.
DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by jcisworthy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:40 pm

I have 5 E7TE heads here and would consider offering up a ported set to compete in your dyno tests.

One problem I have is that I do not think I have enough time in the next few weeks to get a set done. I most likely will not. Maybe in 4-6 weeks? If you are willing to wait a couple, three weeks I would commit to having them done and we can work something out.

I would not be opposed to you posting the results no matter what the outcome is.

This would not be a "into water" set of heads but I would most likely install pushrod tubes and I would surely size the runner as best I could for the valves I choose.

I would supply a set of heads to compete with the engine combination you are running. This would be a swap and test only other than some tuning changes for each pair of heads. No cam changes etc.

I am confident I can supply a competitive set of heads and I would pay shipping to and from only. You would cover the rest of the expenses. That way you can include in you writings how your heads did in comparison to another set of ported heads.

I will also give you the right to refuse the heads if you are not happy with the quality and or feel the heads may fail or make your engine fail for any reason. That will not happen but I will give you the option no questions asked.

I would need complete details of the engine you are running in order to supply a competitive pair of heads. That could be online or offline
Specializing in engine building and cylinder head porting

http://www.rbjracing.tk

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by GARY C » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:36 pm

randy331 wrote:
CGT wrote:I vote that the heads that were ported by the Vizard ideology will win for sure in that test.
Takin a big risk on that bet.

I don't suppose your willing to bet who will win the next election in NO. Korea ?

Randy
Do you think your heads will beat your heads on special needs?

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by 5.0Thunder » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:58 pm

Just read all 22 pages. I'm liking all of the Technical information provided here and how it is laid out. I also own a lot of DV's books and though I wouldn't pay to have E7's worked, I'd enjoy cutting on a set myself If the final porting instructions are published.

What's your timeline for this looking like Dave? And when would the next book be published? :D

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by CGT » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:29 pm

randy331 wrote:I don't suppose your willing to bet who will win the next election in NO. Korea ?
I'll take Kim Jong-un for 300.00 Alex. :D
GARY C wrote:Do you think your heads will beat your heads on special needs?
I think there is a good possibility there. :lol: There will be a lot to learn there. Very similar port volumes, very similar flowz, different valve sizes etc. Same shortblock, same dyno.

Gary are you saying you think Kim Jong-un will be voted out? Fake newz? Alternative facts? Im confused. Next thing you know your gonna try and tell me the moon landing was faked. :D

I'd be willing to test a competent set of heads on my engine at my expense for dyno and labor, published, unpublished whatever. But everyone's situation is different I know. 400.00 is farely inexpensive education for the ability to learn something at this point. But then again, I don't do it for a living, its just a stupid, and expensive hobby.

But I can assure you, no one is getting inline to send some nobody(me) a set of decent cylinder heads to beat on . :lol:

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by GARY C » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:39 pm

It would be for Randy to send you a set of heads with one intake and one exhaust ported for you to duplicate off of his instructions to see how they fair.

My first thought in topic of this tread is that the GT40 head will fair better due to size and flow but if it's going on a 306 ci it will be interesting to see how the smaller head works with it slightly better mid lift #'s.

In relation to Kim Jong are you referring to the original, the clone or the one brought back from the fake moon landing?

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by CGT » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:50 pm

GARY C wrote:It would be for Randy to send you a set of heads with one intake and one exhaust ported for you to duplicate off of his instructions to see how they fair.

My first thought in topic of this tread is that the GT40 head will fair better due to size and flow but if it's going on a 306 ci it will be interesting to see how the smaller head works with it slightly better mid lift #'s.

In relation to Kim Jong are you referring to the original, the clone or the one brought back from the fake moon landing?
No. I was referring to flat earth Kim Jong.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by Casper393W » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:11 pm

There is a reason people pay to go sit in on David's seminars. His 306 just made 496hp with a dual plane manifold! Most peoples 383's don't make that....

I recommend that if you ever get the chance to learn from David it is worth it! I value his friendship and he has taught me more than he realizes....

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by David Vizard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:14 pm

JC,
Check your PM.

DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by David Vizard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:30 pm

Casper393W wrote:There is a reason people pay to go sit in on David's seminars. His 306 just made 496hp with a dual plane manifold! Most peoples 383's don't make that....

I recommend that if you ever get the chance to learn from David it is worth it! I value his friendship and he has taught me more than he realizes....
Casper -
Thanks for the vote of confidence here but the 496 hp was the other engines figures. The 306 only made 487 with an out of the box Edelbrock Performer Air Gap two plane. Might be work noting that was on 87 octane fuel.


DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 4 weeks. My shop or your shop. Contact seminar organizer at marvingvx@gmail.com for details.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by GARY C » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:42 pm

CGT wrote:
GARY C wrote:It would be for Randy to send you a set of heads with one intake and one exhaust ported for you to duplicate off of his instructions to see how they fair.

My first thought in topic of this tread is that the GT40 head will fair better due to size and flow but if it's going on a 306 ci it will be interesting to see how the smaller head works with it slightly better mid lift #'s.

In relation to Kim Jong are you referring to the original, the clone or the one brought back from the fake moon landing?
No. I was referring to flat earth Kim Jong.
Oh...I still don't have a consensus on that one.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by Erland Cox » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:06 pm

Is the port velocity on these heads at 28" on a flow bench?
Over 300 fps sounds very fast.
What velocity on these kind of heads is seen as the ideal to port for?

Erland

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by Carnut1 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:10 pm

Pitot airspeed 301.7 ft/sec at the pinch and 329 ft/sec center flange on the exhaust @.7" lift. On the bench. 28" water.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by travis » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:20 pm

I think testing these against an unported set of E7's, especially with the couple of different cams that was planned, would give more meaning to all the charts and graphs that have been provided in this post. But, I also understand that (dyno) time is money.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Post by Erland Cox » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:38 pm

302 fps at the push rod pinch?
Is that because it is as big as the casting allows?
There can not be an advantage in having a higher push rod pinch FPS than the rest if rhe port.

Erland

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