2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby Carnut1 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:41 am

Erland Cox wrote:302 fps at the push rod pinch?
Is that because it is as big as the casting allows?
There can not be an advantage in having a higher push rod pinch FPS than the rest if rhe port.

Erland

Close to casting's max available csa.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby MTENGINES » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:48 am

So what we have learned so far is...

Make the port as big as you dare, and it will make the most power.. End of discussion.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby BILL-C » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:15 pm

Actually, there are a few sore spots that need to be opened as far as possible, and then the rest of the port sized to compliment those spots. There is no evidence that all areas of the ports should be opened to the max. I've never found big and stupid ports to make best power.Any extra grinding is a waste of time, money, and power.
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby MTENGINES » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:27 pm

BILL-C wrote:Actually, there are a few sore spots that need to be opened as far as possible, and then the rest of the port sized to compliment those spots. There is no evidence that all areas of the ports should be opened to the max. I've never found big and stupid ports to make best power.Any extra grinding is a waste of time, money, and power.


I really hope you don't port heads for a living.
How many sets of these have you done?
What kind of power have you made with these?
Some casting just need to be made bigger.

In my opinion these heads are a waste of time. The amount of money I would charge to do these to make any kind of decent power would buy a set of good castings that require less work..

You say extra grinding is a waste of time...


These sir are a waste of time!

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby CGT » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:36 pm

MTENGINES wrote:
BILL-C wrote:Actually, there are a few sore spots that need to be opened as far as possible, and then the rest of the port sized to compliment those spots. There is no evidence that all areas of the ports should be opened to the max. I've never found big and stupid ports to make best power.Any extra grinding is a waste of time, money, and power.


I really hope you don't port heads for a living.
How many sets of these have you done?
What kind of power have you made with these?
Some casting just need to be made bigger.

In my opinion these heads are a waste of time. The amount of money I would charge to do these to make any kind of decent power would buy a set of good castings that require less work..

You say extra grinding is a waste of time...


These sir are a waste of time!

I believe Bill-C has a cnc program for them, and uses them in some kind of retro racing class if I'm not mistaken. That makes sense to me. Otherwise I agree with you on starting with a better casting, pretty barbaric combustion chamber on those old castings as well.
Last edited by CGT on Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby BILL-C » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:41 pm

When you're racing a 65 shelby mustang and the rules say you have to use the correct heads for the car what do you propose using then?
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby MTENGINES » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:43 pm

BILL-C wrote:When you're racing a 65 shelby mustang and the rules say you have to use the correct heads for the car what do you propose using then?


A lot of bronze

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby David Vizard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:12 pm

Erland Cox wrote:302 fps at the push rod pinch?
Is that because it is as big as the casting allows?
There can not be an advantage in having a higher push rod pinch FPS than the rest if rhe port.

Erland


Erland,
look at the numbers - it isn't.
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby David Vizard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:18 pm

MTENGINES wrote:So what we have learned so far is...

Make the port as big as you dare, and it will make the most power.. End of discussion.


If it has not become apparent that is exactly what we are NOT doing here then I have failed abysmally!

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby GARY C » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:25 pm

GARY C wrote:
Carnut1 wrote:https://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49585&hilit=Gt40x+heafs&start=75#p665200 These heads will battle it out on the pump. Make your bets now.

If I read it right the GT40 head is 40 cc larger and 20 cfm higher? Are they the same valve size? Will the same cam be used for both head tests? It would be interesting to see side by side graphs on both heads... Maybe time for a new thread laying out full engine, cam and head specs as will be tested or complete update here, the info gets so spread out in these threads that it's hard to put it all together.

Still curious about the difference between these heads?

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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby David Vizard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:48 pm

MTENGINES wrote:
BILL-C wrote:Actually, there are a few sore spots that need to be opened as far as possible, and then the rest of the port sized to compliment those spots. There is no evidence that all areas of the ports should be opened to the max. I've never found big and stupid ports to make best power.Any extra grinding is a waste of time, money, and power.


I really hope you don't port heads for a living.
How many sets of these have you done?
What kind of power have you made with these?
Some casting just need to be made bigger.

In my opinion these heads are a waste of time. The amount of money I would charge to do these to make any kind of decent power would buy a set of good castings that require less work..

You say extra grinding is a waste of time...


These sir are a waste of time!


I have been flow testing and porting heads since 1958. If I want a set of heads ported I don't charge myself for the job. I would not recommend anyone go to a pro to do this because, asyou point out, it would not be cost effective.

The point of this thread was to show that, if given the technology, a first time porter with no spare cash,how to do a pro result job themselves (like many of my past University race car technology students).If I can show how to make even a set of lowly E7 heads work far better than might otherwise be the case I will have delivered some functional 'know-how' to what might be some future stars of the industry. Since I have done this on numerous occasions already I don't feel the need to justify what is being done here.

When these heads are done the total cost in them will be about $250 so lets see how that works out in terms of dollars spent per hp gained. After these dyno results are in then you can use that data to better evaluate the worth of the exercise in both the learning delivered and final results.


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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby Walter R. Malik » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:06 pm

David Vizard wrote:
The situation that exists here is that nothing actually costs 'nothing'.
For over 20 years I had my own dyno. When I moved to Charlotte my good friend Don Losito gave my workshop space in his facility and along with that use of the equipment. This included three flow benches, a 2000 hp dyno, a spintron and machinery such as mills, lathes, even a jig borer. But when dyno and spintron rental dropped those machines were the first to go. But my good friend Terry Walters stepped in and offered help towards producing my books and articles on a 'lets trade' basis. The end result is that Terry and I work out the cost of dyno testing on the basis that if it is needed solely by me for say the final test of a build that will be sold right after the dyno testing.Under such circumstances the dyno testing costs me is $500 a day. This also goes with a post dyno test tear-down inspection to establish all is well. The engine is then reassembled in Terry's shop and carries a warranty. That costs me a further $1500. So, at the very least a days dyno testing for my stuff results in $500 out of my pocket.

If it is a joint research deal Terry picks up all the cost. If it is a case of book/article parts testing on one of Terry's motors then the cost to me is $400 a day which I then work off in trade specing out engine builds, porting or making up simple special tooling etc.

The bottom line here is that testing a set of heads for another head porter would be the same as my walking into some engine shop and asking for a free dyno session on one of their engines just because I have a set of heads I think would be worth testing. What would the likely response be? Probably something along the lines of 'Yes we can do that. Dyno rental is $650 a day and the rental on the test engine is $150 a day'

So similarly the tests of this porters heads would be a minimum of $400 out of my pocket and I might also point out that the FREE info I give out on this forum costs me money to give you guys. I have to draw the line somewhere.

But if I take on the testing of this guys heads there is more to it than just a dyno test. Remember these E7TE heads were done with a mind to not break into water. Charlie could have got more airflow but only at the expense of a possible break through. This means the the first move would be to send the heads to Charlie for him to sonic test for wall thickness to establish we are not about to dyno test a set of 'flyers'. Next they would need to be shipped to me for comprehensive (about 4 hours) flow bench analysis. From here on up to Terry's shop for the best part of a days dyno testing.

Why a day just to check some heads? Well the fact is in such a case the only fair test would be the optimize mixture and ignition timing as well as cam timing. Also the flow bench tests might very well show the cam that works best with a Carnut1/DV head may be well off the mark for our head porters heads. Would the results be valid if the tests were not with the optimum cam in each case - I think not.

So here we can add a cam change to the equation and the cost of a cam. See how it is mounting up. Now if your head porter is willing to support the costs that I normally have to support to get my results I will be ready to go in a few weeks. If not this goes nowhere.

Another scenario here. It might be a long shot but what if the cylinder heads fail drastically. I am sure your head porter won't want the results put out to the public. If I am covering costs they are my results not his so I can make them as public as I want. If he is paying for the tests then they are his results not mine so he retains total control of who should or should not see them.

So now you have a more full picture of the situation, I welcome your comments.
DV


David ... you are "right on" here;
This is totally the case ... no matter where you go but, that unknowing "wanna be'" just fails to even try to understand the process involved.

In my opinion and what would happen with my own testing;
IF the heads are YOURS and simply ported by someone else then the testing of those heads & ports should not cost them anything.
Same thing if the ported heads being tested were GIVEN to you and are now yours.

In any case ... if you gotta give them back, then he pays the freight for the testing. However, IF the tests were evaluated for your benefit as well as his, then you should split all costs.
Unless you feel like being generous.

Testing cost money, sometimes a lot of money, (not even mentioning the time involved), yet some people expect, (even somehow think they deserve to know), those outcomes, results and conclusions simply because they believe they are entitled to have them.

If you give them a gift of some results, they complain because you didn't GIVE them all the results. To hell with those ingrates.
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby David Vizard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:48 pm

Round 9 - the specific port energy.

This is a very useful way to look at . a cylinder heads output production capability and make a comparison of how it will plan out in real life.

From the graph below we can see just how effectively the balance between port flow and velocity works out.

In spite of having less peak flow the port energy of our E7TE heads has exceeded that of the GT 40 heads I ported as part of the comparative dyno tests.

Note how much higher the port energy is than the stock ports. This is all due to a more efficient and only minimally larger port . flowing much more air without any sacrifice of port speed.

The dyno will have the final word here but I am expecting these heads to rival the GT40 heads in terms of total output.

Just for the record a good ProStock head runs about 27 or so ft-lbs/sqr in/per foot length.

DV
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby David Vizard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:49 pm

Mr. Jcisworthy,

Have you checked your PMs yet???
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Re: 2 heads better than 1 - power porting E7TE iron.

Postby jcisworthy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:01 pm

I sent you a pm yesterday


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